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From: "Douglas Richardson" <>
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford
Date: 27 Nov 2005 09:22:33 -0800
References: <952E0452-DDD2-4D36-9E15-C86DECD35D7B@windsong.org.uk> <000601c5f361$f5b42b90$35766c51@peteraqvmamgxs>
In-Reply-To: <000601c5f361$f5b42b90$35766c51@peteraqvmamgxs>


Great work, Peter. Well done.

In addition to the sources which you have cited in your post, I show
that the Sir Nicholas de Bek's wife, Joan de Stafford, is identified as
the daughter of Sir Ralph de Stafford, 1st Earl of Stafford, in the
Visitation of Cheshire as follows:

Glover et al. Vis. of Cheshire 1580, 1566, 1533 & 1591 (H.S.P. 18)
(1882): 201 (1580 Vis.) ("Sir Nicholas Beck = Jane d. to Rafe
L:Stafford & of Katherin Hastang") (Beck arms: Gules, a cross
ermine), 203 ("Sir Nicho' Beck = ... d. to the good Lord
Stafford").

Thanks to Google, the kinship chart in your post was a bit difficult to
read. So, I've taken the liberty to repost the same information below
which you did, but in two separate columns. The pedigrees below shows
the 4th degree relationship (3rd cousins) which existed between Sir
Robert de Swinnerton and his wife, Elizabeth de Bek, by way of their
common descent from Sir Robert de Hastang. This kinship is indicated
by the dispensation which you cited in your post.

1. Sir Robert de Hastang, m. Isabel
2. Joan de Hastang, m. Sir Roger de Swynnerton
3. Sir Roger de Swynnerton, m. Maud Haughton
4. Sir Thomas de Swynnerton, m. Maud de Holand
5. Sir Robert de Swynnerton, m. Elizabeth de Bek

1. Sir Robert de Hastang, m. Isabel
2. Sir John de Hastang, m. Eve
3. Katherine de Hastang, m. Ralph de Stafford, K.G., 1st Earl of
Stafford
4. Joan de Stafford, m. Sir Nicholas de Bek
5. Elizabeth de Bek, m. Sir Robert de Swynnerton

Once again, great work on your part, Peter. Well done.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net

"Peter Sutton" wrote:
> Cris
>
> Since I sent the message in 2001 which you referred to I have done some more
> research on a possible wife for Sir Nicholas Bek.
>
> Josiah C. Wedgewood in HCS Volume: 1917-8 Parliamentary History Volume:1
> says -
>
> " Sir Nicholas de Beek of Tean, MP Staffs 1363, 1365 - Born c. 1320; son and
> heir of Robert de Beek of the same (dead)in 1347). He married Jane,
> daughter of Ralph Earl of Stafford who was the mother of his heiress (Harl
> MSS 6128. folio 59; and Gonville and Caius MSS No: 573 folio 107 ex. inf.
> Rev. Charles Swynnerton).
>
> In 1347 Tean was settled on him and his wife Jane (SC XV 114), his mother
> Mary still having Hopton in dower for life while he had only the reversion.
> He was knighted by 1348 being then in the household of Lord Stafford;
> doubtless for that reason he was put on the Commission of the Peace in 1351.
> He was a Commissioner occasionally 1354-61; and Sheriff of Staffordshire and
> Salop from 27 November 1368 to July 1369, when he must have died, as he was
> succeeded by the Under-Sheriff till November.
>
> His only surviving daughter and heiress Elizabeth married Sir Robert de
> Swynnerton of Swynnerton and was the mother of the famous Maud Swynnerton
> (SC XV 114) who was abducted by Sir John de Ipstones.
>
> He bore Arms in the Roll of 1380: Gules a Cross Ermine etc. etc."
>
> As you know law suits 2H.IV and 9H.IV refer to a person called "Joan" as
> being the wife of Sir Nicholas although they are some 30-40 years after his
> death.
>
> Now if Sir Nicholas really did marry a daughter of Ralph Stafford and
> Katherine de Hastang then there would be the following relationship between
> Sir Robert de Swynnerton and Elizabeth Bek:
>
> Sir Robert
> de Hastang = Isabella
>
> 1st degree, siblings Sir Roger de Swynnerton = Joan de Hastang Sir
> John de Hastang = Eva
>
> 2nd degree, cousins Sir Roger de Swynnerton = Maud Haughton
> Katherine de Hastang = Ralph de Stafford, 1st Earl of Stafford
>
> 3rd degree, 2nd cousinsSir Thomas de Swynnerton = Maud de Holand Jane
> or Joan de Stafford = Sir Nicholas Bek
>
> 4th degree, 3rd cousins Sir Robert de Swynnerton =
> Elizabeth Bek
>
> As they would be related in the 4th degree they would have required a Papal
> dispensation to marry.
>
> This is what I have found:
>
> "Calendar of entries in the Papal Registers relating to Great Britain &
> Ireland - Papal Letters Vol: VI AD 1404-1415 - PRO 1904
>
> Lateran Regestra Vol: CXXIII 1405
>
> 12 Kal. Aug. St Peter's Rome (f.214)
>
> Confirmation, at the recent petition of Maud, wife of John Savage, esquire
> (armigeri), of the diocese of Lichfield - containing that her parents [the
> late] Robert de Swynorton, knight, and the late Elizabeth his wife, upon
> learning that they had contracted marriage in ignorance that they were
> related in the fourth degree of kindred, obtained from the late John do
> Cabrespino, canon of Narbonne, then nuncio in England who asserted that he
> had faculty, for the purpose from Urban V, dispensation to remain in their
> marriage, with declaration of the legitimacy of future offspring; and adding
> that her said parents thereafter died, that she was born after the said
> dispensation and that the registers of the, said pope which should contain
> the said faculty are not in the Roman court - of the said dispensation, with
> declaration that the said marriage and Maud herself were legitimate.
> Exemplification is given of the letters of dispensation of John do
> Cabrespino, doctor of canon law, canon of Narbonne, papal nuncio in England,
> addressed to Robert de Swynarton (sic) and Elizabeth, daughter of Nicholas
> de Bek, of the diocese of Lichfield, which themselves contain
> exemplification of Urban V's faculty Personam tuam, dated at Avignon, 8 Id.
> July anno 1 [1363], to dispense twenty-five men and as many women of his
> nunciature to remain in marriages contracted in ignorance of their bqing
> related in the fourth degree of kindred or affinity, declaring past and
> future offspring legitimate [see Cal. Lett. IV pp. 87]
>
> The nuncio's letters, dated in his lodging at London in the year of the
> Nativity, 1364, indiction 2, according to the computation of the Roman
> court, 25 Jan., anno 2 Urban V, are sealed with his seal, witnessed by
> Berengarius Ferrarii, canon, [and] Peter Meyssenerii of the diocese of
> Seboricen (i.e. perhaps Segorve, Segobricen, in Spain) and Geneva (Geneben),
> and drawn up, attested written, published and sealed in form of a public
> instrument by Raymond de Campo Albaldo, clerk, of the dioces of Mende,
> public notary by papal authority Ad fut. rei mem. Justis et honestis."
>
> Although this does not prove beyond all doubt that Sir Nicholas Bek married
> Joan or Jane Stafford I now believe that this was the case.
>
> Regards
>
> Peter
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cristopher Nash [mailto:c@windsong.org.uk]
> > Sent: 27 November 2005 03:10
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford
> >
> > Douglas, thanks very much for this -
> >
> > > The colonial immigrant, Martha Eltonhead, descends from Sir
> > Ralph de
> > > Stafford (died 1372), 1st Earl of Stafford, through his
> > granddaughter,
> > > Elizabeth de Beke, wife of Robert de Swinnerton, Knt. [Reference:
> > > Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, pp. 303-307, 722-723].
> >
> > There's an old problem affecting the line you have in mind -
> > concerning the uncertainty as to whether the mother of
> > Elizabeth de Beke is a da. of Sir Ralph de Stafford - put
> > most clearly I think by Peter Sutton on 24 Jan 01 sub <RE:
> > Mother of Margaret Stafford> -
> >
> > > In the Collection for a History of Staffordshire Volume: 1925 p.
> > > 109 ... from
> > > a suit at Stafford Assizes in July, 1402, we learn
> > definitely that he
> > > (Sir Nicholas Beke) was the son of Mary (otherwise Mariota) de Bek,
> > > and that he himself married a wife named Joan; while from a
> > suit also
> > > heard at Stafford in August,
> > > 1408 we know that
> > > he and Joan were both living at Lady day, 1348 (SHC XV,
> > pages 114 and
> > > 122 Plea Rolls 1387-1405). However, the surname is not
> > quoted in any
> > > source I have seen.
> > >
> > > As to Ralph de Stafford's children by Katherine de Hastang
> > I have not
> > > seen any direct evidence that there were any other children
> > from this
> > > marriage apart from Margaret.
> > >
> > > I am not sure how likely it would be for him to have 2
> > daughters both
> > > called Joan who lived to adulthood. Have you got a reliable source
> > > for the marriage to Sir Nicholas Bek?
> >
> > I wonder whether for MCA or in the course of other work
> > you've turned up an answer?
> >
> > Many thanks, again!
> >
> > Cris
> >
> >

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