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From:
Subject: Re: Gilbert fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further..
Date: 27 Nov 2005 15:36:52 -0800
References: <7a.633533.30ba8697@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <7a.633533.30ba8697@aol.com>


Dear Will and interested others:

Unfortunately, the Preston ancestry is not so well defined in the
literature or records as one may have liked. It required some detective
work to offer a theory of the line. Part of this work required matching
the theory with extant records. To shed some light on this I developed
the Tables found in another of my messages. I realize that these
calculated life times are only averages and there is great opportunity
for error and that errors propagate the farther one gets from a known
event. If you have a better way of getting brackets around individuals
I would be glad to hear a better approach.

>From my own experience of interleafing real Preston records with my
table over the period of 1000-1500 I have been very pleased with the
correlations to the table. Since my tables are considered questionable,
and this is a fair criticism and not unexpected, I would like to
approach the question of different mother for Ketel and Goditha from an
other perspective. This matter I see as the crucial argument.

After many months in Newsgroup archives reading the conversations
regarding this family provided by very highly qualified individuals in
genealogy and history, I have accepted that Dr. Keats-Rohan has
unscrambled the confusion surrounding this family.

In her book, DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS: PROSOPOGRAPHY OF PERSONS OCCURRING
IN ENGLISH DOCUMENTS 1066-1166; II. Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum; K.
S. B. Keats-Rohan, THE BOYDELL PRESS, she provides the following chart
along with biographies of the individuals. This construction differs
from most accepted lines in the literature, and is argued against by
some of the experts of soc.genealogy.medieval. However, it explains
several difficulties in the literature and helps explain the Preston
origins more logically and chronologically, in my opinion.

K. S. B. Keats-Rohans Chart: The family of Lancaster or Taillebois

Ivo m. (2)
Taillebois Lucy dau. Of
d. 1093 m. (1) Turold
N.N.
I
Beatrice d. m. (2)
by1121 m. (1) Ribald fl.
Eldred 1086
________I_______ _______
I___________________
I I I
I I I
Ketel Godith Ralph
Hervey Rainald William
m. m. Taillebois
Christina Gilbert of m.
I Lancaster Agnes de
I I Brus
I I
___ I____ I
I I I
Orm William William of m. (2)
I Lancaster or Gundrada of
I Taillebois Warwick
I fl. 1120-1170
I m. (1) N. N.
I I_____________
I I I
Gospatric Avice m. William II
William II Peverel d. 1184

The problem of Ketel and Goditha's parents can only be solved through
chronological analysis. My tables have been tested with actual records
I have collected for the Preston line which total to more than 70
Word pages. I am comfortable with my findings in this line, and the
calculated timelines reflected in my tables which many will call
guesses.

Lets try to get to the Ketel and Goditha problem in another direction
than from my tables, but using the 29 year average interval based upon
55 different families.

First, Dr. Keats-Rohan provides the following on our individuals.

(1) IVO DE TAILLEBOIS: Ivo Taillebois, probably brother of Ralph
Taillebois, a sheriff of Bedfordshire who was dead by 1086, was a
prominent administrator throughout the reign of William I and well into
that of William II. He appears to have been twice married since he was
ancestor of the English family surnamed 'of Lancaster' or Taillebois
who descended from the thegn Eldred, alive in 1086. In 1093 he can be
seen to have had a daughter Beatrice, then married to Ribald of
Richmond. She was dead in 1121, when Ivo's widow Lucy was married to
her third husband. Lucy and Beatrice, probably widow of Eldred before
marriage to Ribald, were contemporaries, so Lucy must have been Ivo's
second wife. She was the daughter of Ivo's predecessor as sheriff of
Lincoln, Turold, who was probably a Norman. Her mother undoubtedly had
English ancestry since she was the daughter of William Malet, a sheriff
of York who seems to have had English maternal antecedents. Source:
DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 35

(2) TAILLEBOIS, BEATRIX: Daughter of Ivo Taillebois (q.v.) and his
unknown first wife. Clay thought Beatrice was probably illegitimate
(EYC, v, 291), because none of Ivo's property passed to Ribald with his
wife Beatrice. Ivo's second wife Lucy was an important heiress whose
inheritance formed the basis of the land Ivo held in Domesday Book This
fief, the honour of Bolingbroke, was inherited by the two sons of
Lucy's subsequent marriages, whereas Ivo's own barony of Kendal,
granted after 1086 went (possibly) to Ketel son of Eldred and then to
Ketels nephew William fitz Gilbert of Lancaster, surnamed Taillebois
(Sanders, 56). In the late twelfth century the writer Peter of Blois
claimed that Ivo had had a sole daughter, nobly married Defective
genealogies, in the Cockersand Cartulary and the Register of St Mary's
York (Cockersand Cart., ii, pp. 305-8) made William a descendant of
Eldred and Ivo Taillebois, who must have been father of Eldred's wife.
Beatrice is known to have married Ribald, half-brother of the
Conqueror's Breton cousin Count Alan before 1093; Monasticon
Anglicanum. III, p. 553 no. xx. She was dead by c 1121 at the time of
a gift to St Mary's by Ribald and their son Ralph Taillebois: Given
that Ketel Fitz Eldred, his nephew William of Lancaster, and Ralph
fitz Ribald, were all active c.1120, .just a few years before Ivos
widow buried her third husband, one can conclude that Beatrice was a
legitimate heir of Ivo by a wife previous to Lucy, who was Beatrice's
contemporary, and that she was first the wife of the Englishman Eldred
and subsequently the wife of Ribald. For the descendants of Beatrice
and Ribald see Rev. H. C. Fitz Herbert An original pedigree ofTailbois
and Neville', The Genealogist, ns iii, 31. Clay. Early Yorkshire
Charters (1936), V, no. 358. Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S.
B. Keats-Rohan, page 1121

(3) FILIUS ELDRED, KETEL: Son of Eldred and a daughter of Ivo
Taillcbois (q.v.), some of whose land in the barony of Kendal he
inherited. Benefactor of the abbey of St Bees, founded 1120, to which
he gave land in Morland and Workington (Register St Bees, pp. 233 -34,
no. 212) with the assent of his wife Christiana and son William. Father
also of Orm, whose son Gospatric was his eventual heir. His grant of
land to St Leonard's, York, was confirmed by his sister's son William
fitz Gilbert of Lancaster (q.v.). He died several years after 1120.
G. Washington, The parentage of William de Lancaster, lord of
Kendal', Transactions Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian &
Archaeological Society 62 (1962). Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum,
III, pp. 548-60, no. V. Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B.
Keats-Rohan, page 881

William Farrer provides:

(4) 1184-1189 Notification by Henry II, addressed to our dear son
Richard, comte de Poitiers, of his grant to Gilbert son of Roger
Fitz-Reinfrid, our sewer, of the daughter of William de Lancastre with
her whole inheritance. Witnesses : Geoffrey our son and chancellor,
William Marshal, Richard de Humet; Reg. of D. at Levens, f. 79; Farrer,
Laws. 'Pipe R., 395. Source: Farrer, Records of Kendale Vol. I, p.
1-2.

(5) 1189 At Rouen, on 20th July, king Richard confirmed to Gilbert
son of Roger Fitz-Rainfrei, sewer to the king, his father, the daughter
of William de Lancastre ; Benedict, Gesta Ricardi, ii, 73.

This gift, or rather confirmation by Richard I of the earlier gift by
the king's father, is recorded in the chancellor's own words, addressed
to the comte de Poitiers, now king of England, in L' Histoire de
Guillaume Le Marechal, by Paul Meyer, 11. 9379-84, where it is also
shewn that the daughter of William de Lancastre was then, or had been,
in the wardship of William Marshal:
" Et si vos di en bone fei
" Que Gilebert le filz Reinfrei
" Ne retirit il pas a filastre :
" Cele li dona de Lancastre
" Que li [Marechal] ont en garde,
" Dont il fist molt corteise garde."
On the same occasion the chancellor informed king Richard of the late
king's gift of the young heiress of Striguil (Chepstow) to William
Marshal, and of "la pucele " of Chateauroux to Baldwin de Bethune; ib.,
11. 9362-9378. See Sizergh, s.d., 1184-89. Source: Farrer, Records
of Kendale Vol. I, p. 2.

It appears Hawsie/Helewise de Lancaster was delivered to ward ship in
1084 at her fathers death and given in marriage in 1189. If she was 20
at marriage, then born 1169. Applying our 29 year average interval
makes her father William de Lancaster II approx b. 1140 and his father
approx b. 1111. Continuing to Goditha approx b. 1082 and on to Beatrice
approx b. 1053 and lastly to Ivo approx b. 1024. If she were 15 at her
marriage, then Beatrice was approx b. 1058 and Ivo 1029. So she is
bracketed between 1053 and 1058 plus or minus ???. This simplistic
representation, of course, does not represent the ebb and flow of the
real generational interval which unfortunately is unknown, and any
birth dates in the literature are merely the product of someones
dating scheme. However, it is a pretty good what if. Lets beat it
against some data. Dr. Keats-Rohan provides the following.

(6) DE LANCASTRIA, GILBERT: His son and successor William fitz Gilbert
of Lancaster was nephew of an Englishman Ketel son of Eldred whose
sister Godith was Gilbert's wife. His father is unknown. William occurs
from c. 1120-70, G. Washington, 'The parentage of William de Lancaster,
lord of Kendal'. Transactions Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian &
Archaeological Society 62 (1962). Dugdale. Monuslicon Anglicanum,
III, p. 577, no. III; Greenway, Charters of the Honour of Mowbrey
(1972), no. 370; F. Ragg, Charters of St Peter's (St Leonard's
Hospital, York', TCWAAS (1909), p. 237 Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS;
by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 539.

(7) Nigel Barker writing in GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives contributes the
following information which he apparently quotes from VICTORIA HISTORY
OF LANCASHIRE
VOL I pp35. Notes from passage on the family of Lancaster, Barons of
Kendal (I have not see the VCH Lancs text, therefore I present the text
as contained in Nigels post.)

[The origin of the family is obscure.]
[Small landholder within the Barony of Coupland.]
[Granted land by William Meschine when he was granted his fief by Henry
I.]

The first recorded member is little mentioned beyond the bare fact that
his name was Gilbert and his wife's name was Godith (Lancs Fines Rec
Soc XXXIX 61). To this the monkish chroniclers have added the fiction
that he was the son of Ketel, son of Eldred, son of Ivo Taillebois (Mon
Angl iii 553 & Cockersands Cartulary, Chethem Soc (New Series) xxxix
305), whereas he was almost, if not quite, contemporary with Ivo, by
whom
Gilbert and his predecessor was probably enffeoffed of those manors
within the Barony of Westmoreland which his descendants, the barons of
Kendal, where (sic were) chief lords. (Gilbert fitz Reinford & Helewise
his wife confirmed some of Ivo's grants to the Abbey of St. Mary, York
(Mon Ang iii 566))

The connection which existed between the heirs of Ketel, son of Eldred,
namely the Curwens of Workington, and the Lancasters, of whom the
former held several manors in Cumberland and Westmoreland, was probably
of tenure rather than consanguinity. Intimately connected with this
subject is a charter, of which an ancient transcript is preserved at
Levens Hall, by which Roger de Mawbury grants to William son of Gilbert
de Lancaster, in fee and inheritance, "all my land of Lonsdale, and of
Kendal, and Horton in Ribblesdale, to hold by the service of 4 knights
(Reg of Deeds at Levens Hall f79, Lancs Pipe Reg 389). It would be
interesting to discuss the question as to whether this charter
represents an original grant or merely a confirmation of a much older
infeudation.
William son of Gilbert was the first to be enfeoffed of land in
Lancaster. In 1212 he is described as "Willelmus filiuus Gibberti
premus". He is not always described as "de Lancaster" for which it may
be inferred that he was the first of his line to be associated with the
Court and its Lords. The Mon. Chronicle to which allusion has already
been made tells us that he caused himself to be called "de Lancaster"
by the King's Licence, and to be styled before the King in Parliament
(sic) "William de Lancaster, Baron Kendal". The same Chronicle states
that he married Gundreda, formerly Countess of Warwick, whose husband,
Roger de Newburgh, died in 1153.

William de Lancaster died in or after 1170. Et seq. Nigel Barker
Source: Source: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives, Nigel Barker. Subject: Re: Ivo
and Lucy Talybois; Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998.

Having bracketed Beatrice lets look at the other side of this
interesting family.

I start with the daughter of Gospatric the Earl who has many name
spellings. I have seen her identified as Gunnilda, Gunhilda, Gunilda,
Gravelda, Gunelda, and Gumilda. By any other name she is the person
referred to as follows.

Of this marriage of Orme with Gunilda, Jackson (at p. 3 of his
Curwens of Workington) says: "No more noble and ancient strain of
blood flows in the veins of any in our land, than can be deduced--and
that in irrefragible evidence--through this marriage." Source: Irish
and Anglo-Irish Landed Gentry; Author: John O'Hart; Call Number:
R929.1 O36; M. H Gill & Son. Dublin. 1884.

I am of the opinion Orme, having found such a treasure, was anxious to
marry. I would suggest that he was of the same age as she and we know
her birth was before her fathers death d. ca1075. [Keaths-Rohan,
p.221]. If he was older, then it helps my case even more.
So we have nominally b. ca 1075 for both. Incidentally, my calculations
call Ketel ugc 1076. Looking at their ancestry and using the 29 year
average ( from 55 families not the ugc unique to the Preston line)
interval plus or minus ???, we find Ketel nominally b. 1047 and Eldred
nominally b. 1018. For his wife we have father Gospatric I nominally b.
1047 and Maldred nominally b. 1018 and Crinan nominally b. 989. These
dates are not far off from those found in the literature which has
Gospatric I b. ca 1040 and Maldred b. ca 1010 and Crinan b. ca 980. In
any event we have Ketel and Gospatric the Earl in the same generation,
and Eldred and Maldred in the same generation. From above we have Ivos
nominal b. 1024 which places him younger than Eldred and Maldred, but
older than Gospatric I and Ketel. Now Eldred, looking around for a new
wife, finds Beatrice dau of Ivo and N. N. who is bracketed for birth
1053-1058 probably 15-20 at marriage to Eldred ca 1068 to 1073 and
Goditha born nominally 1070-1075.

This leaves separation between Ketel and Godithas births basically a
generational interval apart. It suggests two different mothers as wives
of Eldred. Whether Ketels mother was named Algitha, as I have
suggested from secondary sources, or was an unknown wife or if you
disagree with my tables methodology; it doesnt change the logic of my
scenario above.

Therefore, Beatrices children were nominally born ca 1070-1075 and
William de Lancaster nominally born ca 1099-1104 and his son William
II, from an unknown wife, born nominally 1128-1133.

These dates are not far off from those found in the literature, but
they are earlier than others guesses. Whether or not the theory
proposed by Richard Borthwick below is accurate or not, Ketel and
Goditha appear to be a generation apart. In my mind this justifies my
theory. I might add if records existed they would have been
disseminated long ago.

If judging from the two messages below, the vagaries of the 29 year
interval appear to have caught up to us in the case of William I and
his son. This must be corrected by the records, unfortunately, as
interpreted by others. I consider some soc.genealogy. medieval
contributors to be better than others after reading much of their
writings in the archives. Richard Borthwick has been a valuable
resource.

From: Richard Borthwick (); Subject: Re:
Researching DE BRUS and descendants; Newsgroups:
soc.genealogy.medieval; Date: 1999/08/21

28 William (I) de LANCASTER, of Kendal. Died Before 29 Sep 1170.
Sanders gives no indication of William's death but Washington does.
[Sanders, I J *English Baronies: a study of their origin and descent
1086-1327* (Oxford, 1963 [1960]) 57; G Washington "The parentage of
William de Lancaster, lord of Kendal" in *Transactions of the
Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaelogical Society* LXII
(1962) 99]

29 NN. Died Before 1153/1156. William (II) witnessed his father's
1120/30 confirmation of Chetell's gifts to St Peter's Hospital, York.
His father's second wife Gundreda married him after 1153 (the year of
her first husband's death). So William (II) was not her son. His
sister, Avice may have been Gundreda's daughter. [CP XII/2:362; G
Washington "The parentage of William de Lancaster, lord of Kendal" in
*Transactions of the Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian &
Archaelogical Society* LXII (1962) 99] [FDP Note: the newsgroup, after
much recent discussion, has concluded Avice was not chronologically
Gundredas daughter.]

Finally, Source: Richard Borthwick; Subject: Re: Ivo and Lucy Talybois;
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval; Date: 1998/10/02 .

If the confirmation mentioned below occurred in about 1120/30 then
William (I) [(4) 1] was born well before 1115. He would have been old
enough to have had a son who could witness his confirmation and himself
to have been of age. This would push back William (I)'s birth to about
1090. Both William (I) and William (II) would have been quite old when
they diedI don't think William (II) [(5) 1] was the son of Gundreda de
Warren. Her first husband died 1153 [CP XII/2:362]. William evidently
witnessed his father's confirmation (about 1120/30) to the Hospital of
St Peter, York {Moriarty in Washington's paper (already cited) and he
refers to the printing of the charters to St Peter's in F W Ragg
"Charters of St Peter's Hospital, York" in CW2 ix 237-239. I take it
this refers to Transactions of the Cumberland and Westmorland
Antiquarian & Archaeological Society (? second series) vol. IX].

I have found two records in Farrer which suggests the family may have
had a record of giving to St. Peter as Richard Borthwick relates above.
This however, appears to be a following gift and not the one William
gave and William II witnessed.

1154-1189 William son of William de Lancaster gives to the brethren
of the hospital of St. Peter, York, the land called Dockerga, by bounds
(described), in exchange for land in Kirkeby in Kendale which Ketel son
of Eltred gave them and the land of Bartonheved which William, the
donor's father gave them; Cal. Of Chart. R., ii, 442. Farrer, Records
of Kendale,Vol I, p. 203.

1214-1220 Gilbert, son of Roger Fitz-Rainfray confirmed the gift of
Docarhe of William de Lancaster Farrer, Records of Kendale,Vol I,
p. 203.

Again, I have suggested a theory for this family backed with records
as I have found them. They may be sufficient for some and totally
deficient to others. I have nothing but respect for the intellect and
knowledge for those who contribute to this forum. The archives contain
the wisdom of the ages and are a joy to review.

Respectfully submitted,

Dix Preston



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