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From: Cristopher Nash <c@windsong.org.uk>
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:34:23 +0000
References: <000601c5f361$f5b42b90$35766c51@peteraqvmamgxs>
In-Reply-To: <000601c5f361$f5b42b90$35766c51@peteraqvmamgxs>


Thanks enormously for this, Peter — it's an extremely canny and
persuasive piece of work and just the kind that was needed.

Scanning down, may I just ask — at the real risk of looking a gift h.
in the m. — whether anyone here has seen more in support of the
proposition that Roger de Swinnerton's w. Maud is a Haughton (e.g.
da. of Sir Thomas Haughton of Haughton — as per Rev. Charles
Swynnerton, Genealogist (N.S.), vol. xxxi, 69ff.) ? CP cites the
argument but with reservations and declines to incorporate the
conclusion (Roger de Swinnerton m. Maud Haughton) in its Swynnnerton
sequence (XII, Pt. 1, 586).

Many thanks again, Peter — and to Douglas.

Cris


On 27 Nov 2005, at 14:50, Peter Sutton wrote:

> Cris
>
> Since I sent the message in 2001 which you referred to I have done
> some more
> research on a possible wife for Sir Nicholas Bek.
>
> Josiah C. Wedgewood in HCS Volume: 1917-8 Parliamentary History
> Volume:1
> says -
>
> " Sir Nicholas de Beek of Tean, MP Staffs 1363, 1365 - Born c.
> 1320; son and
> heir of Robert de Beek of the same (dead)in 1347). He married Jane,
> daughter of Ralph Earl of Stafford who was the mother of his
> heiress (Harl
> MSS 6128. folio 59; and Gonville and Caius MSS No: 573 folio 107
> ex. inf.
> Rev. Charles Swynnerton).
>
> In 1347 Tean was settled on him and his wife Jane (SC XV 114), his
> mother
> Mary still having Hopton in dower for life while he had only the
> reversion.
> He was knighted by 1348 being then in the household of Lord Stafford;
> doubtless for that reason he was put on the Commission of the Peace
> in 1351.
> He was a Commissioner occasionally 1354-61; and Sheriff of
> Staffordshire and
> Salop from 27 November 1368 to July 1369, when he must have died,
> as he was
> succeeded by the Under-Sheriff till November.
>
> His only surviving daughter and heiress Elizabeth married Sir
> Robert de
> Swynnerton of Swynnerton and was the mother of the famous Maud
> Swynnerton
> (SC XV 114) who was abducted by Sir John de Ipstones.
>
> He bore Arms in the Roll of 1380: Gules a Cross Ermine etc. etc."
>
> As you know law suits 2H.IV and 9H.IV refer to a person called
> "Joan" as
> being the wife of Sir Nicholas although they are some 30-40 years
> after his
> death.
>
> Now if Sir Nicholas really did marry a daughter of Ralph Stafford and
> Katherine de Hastang then there would be the following relationship
> between
> Sir Robert de Swynnerton and Elizabeth Bek:
>
> Sir Robert
> de Hastang = Isabella
>
> 1st degree, siblings Sir Roger de Swynnerton = Joan de
> Hastang Sir
> John de Hastang = Eva
>
> 2nd degree, cousins Sir Roger de Swynnerton = Maud Haughton
> Katherine de Hastang = Ralph de Stafford, 1st Earl of Stafford
>
> 3rd degree, 2nd cousins Sir Thomas de Swynnerton = Maud de
> Holand Jane
> or Joan de Stafford = Sir Nicholas Bek
>
> 4th degree, 3rd cousins Sir Robert de Swynnerton =
> Elizabeth Bek
>
> As they would be related in the 4th degree they would have required
> a Papal
> dispensation to marry.
>
> This is what I have found:
>
> "Calendar of entries in the Papal Registers relating to Great
> Britain &
> Ireland - Papal Letters Vol: VI AD 1404-1415 - PRO 1904
>
> Lateran Regestra Vol: CXXIII 1405
>
> 12 Kal. Aug. St Peter's Rome (f.214)
>
> Confirmation, at the recent petition of Maud, wife of John Savage,
> esquire
> (armigeri), of the diocese of Lichfield - containing that her
> parents [the
> late] Robert de Swynorton, knight, and the late Elizabeth his wife,
> upon
> learning that they had contracted marriage in ignorance that they were
> related in the fourth degree of kindred, obtained from the late
> John do
> Cabrespino, canon of Narbonne, then nuncio in England who asserted
> that he
> had faculty, for the purpose from Urban V, dispensation to remain
> in their
> marriage, with declaration of the legitimacy of future offspring;
> and adding
> that her said parents thereafter died, that she was born after the
> said
> dispensation and that the registers of the, said pope which should
> contain
> the said faculty are not in the Roman court - of the said
> dispensation, with
> declaration that the said marriage and Maud herself were legitimate.
> Exemplification is given of the letters of dispensation of John do
> Cabrespino, doctor of canon law, canon of Narbonne, papal nuncio in
> England,
> addressed to Robert de Swynarton (sic) and Elizabeth, daughter of
> Nicholas
> de Bek, of the diocese of Lichfield, which themselves contain
> exemplification of Urban V's faculty Personam tuam, dated at
> Avignon, 8 Id.
> July anno 1 [1363], to dispense twenty-five men and as many women
> of his
> nunciature to remain in marriages contracted in ignorance of their
> bqing
> related in the fourth degree of kindred or affinity, declaring
> past and
> future offspring legitimate [see Cal. Lett. IV pp. 87]
>
> The nuncio's letters, dated in his lodging at London in the year of
> the
> Nativity, 1364, indiction 2, according to the computation of the Roman
> court, 25 Jan., anno 2 Urban V, are sealed with his seal, witnessed by
> Berengarius Ferrarii, canon, [and] Peter Meyssenerii of the diocese of
> Seboricen (i.e. perhaps Segorve, Segobricen, in Spain) and Geneva
> (Geneben),
> and drawn up, attested written, published and sealed in form of a
> public
> instrument by Raymond de Campo Albaldo, clerk, of the dioces of Mende,
> public notary by papal authority Ad fut. rei mem. Justis et honestis."
>
> Although this does not prove beyond all doubt that Sir Nicholas Bek
> married
> Joan or Jane Stafford I now believe that this was the case.
>
> Regards
>
> Peter
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Cristopher Nash [mailto:c@windsong.org.uk]
>> Sent: 27 November 2005 03:10
>> To:
>> Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford
>>
>> Douglas, thanks very much for this -
>>
>>
>>> The colonial immigrant, Martha Eltonhead, descends from Sir
>>>
>> Ralph de
>>
>>> Stafford (died 1372), 1st Earl of Stafford, through his
>>>
>> granddaughter,
>>
>>> Elizabeth de Beke, wife of Robert de Swinnerton, Knt. [Reference:
>>> Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, pp. 303-307, 722-723].
>>>
>>
>> There's an old problem affecting the line you have in mind -
>> concerning the uncertainty as to whether the mother of
>> Elizabeth de Beke is a da. of Sir Ralph de Stafford - put
>> most clearly I think by Peter Sutton on 24 Jan 01 sub <RE:
>> Mother of Margaret Stafford> -
>>
>>
>>> In the Collection for a History of Staffordshire Volume: 1925 p.
>>> 109 ... from
>>> a suit at Stafford Assizes in July, 1402, we learn
>>>
>> definitely that he
>>
>>> (Sir Nicholas Beke) was the son of Mary (otherwise Mariota) de Bek,
>>> and that he himself married a wife named Joan; while from a
>>>
>> suit also
>>
>>> heard at Stafford in August,
>>> 1408 we know that
>>> he and Joan were both living at Lady day, 1348 (SHC XV,
>>>
>> pages 114 and
>>
>>> 122 Plea Rolls 1387-1405). However, the surname is not
>>>
>> quoted in any
>>
>>> source I have seen.
>>>
>>> As to Ralph de Stafford's children by Katherine de Hastang
>>>
>> I have not
>>
>>> seen any direct evidence that there were any other children
>>>
>> from this
>>
>>> marriage apart from Margaret.
>>>
>>> I am not sure how likely it would be for him to have 2
>>>
>> daughters both
>>
>>> called Joan who lived to adulthood. Have you got a reliable source
>>> for the marriage to Sir Nicholas Bek?
>>>
>>
>> I wonder whether for MCA or in the course of other work
>> you've turned up an answer?
>>
>> Many thanks, again!
>>
>> Cris
>>
>>
>>
>
>


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