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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2006-01 > 1137621449


From: "siabair" <siabair@h=tmail.c=m>
Subject: Re: Niall of the Nine Hostages DNA
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:57:29 -0000
References: <dqh5vl$aru$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <43cc35c6@news.ColoState.EDU> <dqjdvr$o9h$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk> <dqjiev$193$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu> <dqjua5$bd5$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <43cd8a95@news.ColoState.EDU>


Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
> Some of the pedigrees are so supported. Others are not. What I want
> is for each to be evaluated on its own merits.

I cannot disagree with that. It just seems to me that the medieval Irish
genealogies (and I mean only those in the historical period) are too
easily dismissed out of hand as being fabulous without any real
understanding of the degree of confirmation that they obtain from other
document strands. I am not sure that the methodology to be adopted when
a medieval genealogy actually exists in the first place is really
understood here.


> Going back to the original issue, the story claimed that X% of Irish
> descended from Niall. Certainly that same percent don't have
> pedigrees tracing back to Niall. You seem to be saying that because
> some who can legitimately trace to Niall might have this haplotype
> that everyone who has this haplotype traces from Niall. This is like
> "all whales are mammals so all mammals are whales" thinking.

I do not claim that. I claim that the marked haplotype localisation
among families in a small area having pre-existing medieval genealogies
tracing to Niall is significant. I do not make any general claim on this
haplotype.


> Umm, then why would the later Wessex kings apparently forge male-line
> descents from Cerdic? Niall, as founder of the dynasty, was the one
> from whom they all, even the usurpers, must trace to 'justify' their
> position.

How many non-descendants of Alfred among the descendants of Cerdic were
subsequently kings of Wessex/England?


> But that is more or less the case - if you have a valid pedigree, the
> DNA doesn't make it 'more valider'. If you don't have a valid
> pedigree, you still don't after you include the DNA.

I would say that DNA can provide additional confirmation of a valid
pedigree.


> But there would be no need for all of the royal pedigrees to trace
> from Heremon and Scotia and the foundation legend if it was just about
> connecting with Adam.

What foundation legend? The Irish foundation legend (if any) that
existed prior to the Christian-inspired foundation legend that survives
to us is unknown. In the Christian-inspired foundation legend
convergence with biblical lines to Adam is achieved through a mixture of
individuals who appear to be legendary, mythological or fictional.

--
SIABAIR (Old Irish) /shabba/ 'ghost, 'phantom', 'spectre'


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