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From: "Douglas Richardson" <>
Subject: Re: SP Addition: ancestry of Elizabeth de Caldcote (and Livingston of Kilsyth)
Date: 5 May 2006 11:00:23 -0700
References: <42d.18fc0.318cdfd9@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <42d.18fc0.318cdfd9@aol.com>


Dear John ~

It appears that if Elizabeth Tweedie, wife of Richard Brown, was the
niece ["neptem"] of James Douglas (died 1420), rather than his
grand-daughter, that Elizabeth's own niece, Elizabeth de Caldecote,
would be related in the 3rd and 3rd degrees to William Livingston, as
stated in their dispensation. That arrangement makes sense to me.

By your arrangement, however, you have Elizabeth Tweedie as the
granddaughter of James Douglas (died 1420), which in turn causes
Elizabeth Tweedie's niece, Elizabeth de Caldecote, to be related to
William Livingston in the 2nd and 3rd degrees. I can't speak for
Scottish families, but I can assure you that under most circumstances,
a marriage of 2nd and 3rd degree would not have been allowed in
England. Third and third degree marriages are common enough, however.

Would the chronology permit Elizabeth Tweedie to be James Douglas'
niece?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry. net

wrote:
> Friday, 5 May, 2006
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> Several years ago, I had raised the issue of the relationship
> between William Livingston of Kilsyth (d. bef 20 Apr 1460) and his
> wife Elizabeth de Caldcotis, noted in Scots Peerage and elsewhere,
> but which had not been resolved to date [1].
> References to the de Caldecote family are rare, but this week
> I found several references to heraldic seals of family members in
> Stevenson's Scottish Heraldic Seals. That of 'Elizabeth Caldecote'
> was noted (charter of 8 Nov 1459), and interestingly also that of
> 'Christiana Caldecote', evidently her mother:
>
> " CALDECOTE, Christiana, widow of William Caldecote, daughter
> of Walter Twedy. A shield of arms: A saltire and chief, the
> latter charged with a star in dexter and two escallops.
> Legend (l.c.): KYRSTIANE DE CALDCOTTIS. Diam. 1 3/16 in.
> Laing, ii. 158. Reg. Ho. Ch., 6 Jan. 1424-5, two of same
> date - Cast. ' [2]
>
> Beyond providing this possible identification of Elizabeth de
> Caldecote's mother, this entry also appears to provide the link
> between Elizabeth de Caldcotis' ancestry and that of William
> Livingston. The Tweedies of Drummelzier (or Drummelioure),
> Peebleshire are known to have been related to the Douglases of
> Dalkeith. Mark Freeman cites an alleged relationship, with
> Walter Tweedie (son of James 'Tuedy' and an unnamed Douglas) as
> the husband of a daughter of Sir James Douglas of Dalkeith and
> Agnes Dunbar [3]. While the possibility that Agnes Dunbar could
> have been the ancestress of Elizabeth de Caldcotis is unlikely
> from a chronological basis, Freeman does cite a charter in the
> "Tweedie Charters and Writs" in which Sir James Douglas of
> Dalkeith (d. 1441) made a grant to Elizabeth Tweedie and her
> husband Richard Brown,
>
> ' ... and she is called 'neptem' of Sir James Douglas,
> which means either niece or grand-daughter. Probably
> she was James Tweedie's sister, and the presumption is
> that Walter, their father, had married a sister (or
> daughter) of Sir James Douglas. ' [4]
>
> Sir James Douglas of Dalkeith (d. 1420) certainly had issue by
> at least one other woman (possibly wife) besides Agnes Dunbar, and
> likely before. His illegitimate son, Sir James Douglas of Aberdour,
> fought with his brothers James and William, and brother-in-law Sir
> John Livingston of Callendar, at Homildon on 14 Sept 1402 [5],
> and his daughter Margaret is presumed to have been illegitimate [6].
> The following conjectural chart agrees with all the known facts and
> conjectures (incl. those of Freeman), including the 3rd degree
> relationship cited in the 1421 dispensation:
>
> [ NOTE: this chart is conjectural. Conjectured
> relationships are denoted _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ]
>
>
> NN ~ Sir James Douglas of Dalkeith = 1) Agnes Dunbar
> _ _ _ I d. 1420 _________I_______________
> I I I
> NN = Walter Tweedie Agnes = Sir John Sir James
> [Douglas?] I of Drumelzier Douglas I Livingston 'uncle'
> _ _ _ _ _I____________ d. aft I k. Homildon <*>
> I I I 1421 I 1402
> James Elizabeth Christian I
> Tweedie 'neptem' = William I
> of Sir de Caldcote I
> James I I
> Douglas <*> I I
> Elizabeth = William Livingston
> de Caldcote I of Kilsyth
> m. bef 12 Nov 1421 I d. bef 20 Apr 1460
> I
> V
>
>
> It will be noted that William Livingston and Elizabeth de
> Caldcotis are shown as being related in the 2nd and 3rd degrees
> of consanguinity: this is, however, one of the relationships that
> would be covered by the less than exact description of "the third
> degree of kindred" [or "tertio consanguinitatis gradu"] as stated
> in the 1421 dispensation.
>
> Should anyone have additional documentation, comment or
> criticism, that would be welcome.
>
> Cheers,
>
> John *
>
>
> NOTES
>
> [1] <Graden, co. Berwicks., Elizabeth de Caldcotis and the
> Livingstons of Kilsyth>, SGM, 15 Nov 2003. Reference is to
> SP V:184, which states that William and Elizabeth were related
> in the 3rd degree of consanguinity. Andrew Stuart provided the
> text of the dispensation, which says of the pair ['dilecti filii
> nobilis viri Willelmi de Leuynston Domicelli et delict in
> Christo filie nobilis mulieris Elisabeth de Caldcotis
> Domicelle'] that they had a postnuptial dispensation
> granted 12 Nov 1421, they being related in the 3rd degree of
> consanguinity - "tertio consanguinitatis gradu" [Stuart,
> Genealogical History of the Stuarts, p. 453].
>
>
> [2] John Horne Stevenson, K.C. and Marguerite Wood, Ph.D.,
> Scottish Heraldic Seals (Glasgow: Robert MacLehose & Co.,
> Ltd., 1940), II:268. The heraldic seal of Elizabeth de
> Caldcotis is described in the same source as follows:
>
> ' CALDECOTE, Elizabeth, daughter of William Caldecote of
> Grayden, wife of William Livingston of Balcastel (or of
> Kilsyth). A shield of arms: A saltire and chief, the latter
> charged with three escallops. Foliage at top and sides of
> shield. Legend (l.c.): S ELISABETH DE LEVINGSTON.
> Diam. 1 1/16 in. Laing, ii. 159. Reg. Ho. Ch., No. 357
> (2), 8 Nov. 1459 - Cast. '
>
>
> [3] Mark Freeman, "Douglas Family", URL
> freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~markfreeman/douglas.html
>
>
> [4] Ibid., see notes under "107. [Daughter]Douglas.... She
> married Walter Tweedie,..."
>
>
> [5] SP VI:349, sub _Douglas, Earl of Morton_ .
>
>
> [6] Ibid., p. 350.
>
>
> * John P. Ravilious

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