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From:
Subject: Re: SP Addition: ancestry of Elizabeth de Caldcotis (and Livingston of Kilsyth)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 23:35:01 EDT


Monday, 8 May, 2006


Dear Doug,

My comments are interspersed below.



You wrote:

Dear John ~

I've been studying your conjectured Caldicote-Tweedy-Douglas
connection. I find that there are several problems.


First, you've identified Elizabeth de Caldicote's mother as Christian
de Tweedy. You say Christian was "evidently" her mother but you cite
no evidence to support this statement, other than Christian bore the
same married surname as Elizabeth's birth name. While it may well be
true that Elizabeth was Christian's daughter, I believe you need
additional evidence to support this connection besides the surnames are
the same.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

My response:

As my original post stated: the Caldecote entry provided by Stevenson
re: Christiana de Caldcote (or proper Latin, de Caldcotis) "appears to provide
the link" as to the consanguinity between William Livingston and Elizabeth de
Caldcotis, when taken together with the Douglas-Tweedie links (themselves not
sufficiently documented).

In those cases where the evidence is solid, I will say so. In a case
such as this, where a conjecture is being made, I will state (as I did
concerning the chart in my post), " NOTE: this chart is conjectural. Conjectured
relationships are denoted _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ]. "

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Second, Christian, wife of William de Caldicote, appears to have been a
widow in 1425, as indicated by the reference from Stevenson's Scottish
Heraldic Seals, which you quote. As stated above, you have placed
Elizabeth de Caldicote, wife of William de Livingston, who were
dispensed to marry in 1421 as Christian's daughter. This chronology
seems reasonable enough to me.


Stevenson states that Christian, wife of William de Caldicote, was the
daughter of "Walter Twedy." He gives no source for this statement, but
it may well come from Laing, ii. 158, which he cites as a source.
Assuming that Stevenson is correct, then we may posit that Walter de
Tweedy may have been the maternal grandfather of Elizabeth de
Caldicote.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

My response:

Stevenson does a good job (where possible) of identifying the
individuals whose heraldic seals he describes. The identification he provided, of
Christiana (Tweedie) de Caldecote as "widow of William Caldecote, daughter of
Walter Twedy" is doubtless taken from the two charters he referenced.

The arms displayed on Christiana de Caldecote's seal are evidence of her
Tweedie parentage, while not in themselves identifying her father per se.
Her seal gives, " A saltire and chief, the latter charged with a star in dexter
and two escallops. " These are not the undifferenced arms of Caldecote, which
are those given by Stevenson for her (apparent) daughter, Elizabeth (wife of
William Livingston of Kilsyth), and her (apparent) father-in-law, John de
Caldecote of Graden and Simprim, Berwicks: "A saltire and chief, the latter
charged with three escallops. " The arms of Tweedie of Drumelzier are those given
by Stevenson for James Tweedie of Drumelzier (fl. 1473):

" TWEEDIE, James, of Drummelzier. A shield of arms: A saltire
and chief, the latter charged in the center with a star.
Foliage at top and sides of shield. Legend (l.c.): SIGILLUM
IACOBI DE [TU]EDE. Diam. 1 1/l6 in. Peebles Ch., 15 Dec.
1473 (1) - Cast; do., used by Wm.
Veitch (3) - Cast. " [Stevenson, III:634]

To produce a representative seal, given the common elements (A saltire
and chief), Christiana (Tweedie) de Caldecote simply combined the charges used,
her own for Tweedie (" a star") and her husband's, for Caldecote ("two
escallops", with the third replaced by the Tweedie "star"). Not good heraldry, but
puts it to a nice seal.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


The Walter de Tweedy in question was surely the Walter de Tweedy of
Drummelzier, who was Sheriff of Peebleshire in 1373, and who was named
in proceedings in Exchequer Rolls in 1388. This information comes from
the website, http://www.tweedie.org/twe_earl.htm, which in turn cites
Original Tweedie Charters and Writs.



>From this information, we might generate the following pedigree:


I. Walter de Tweedy, born say 1330/5, occurs 1373-1388.

II. Christian de Tweedy, born say 1370, living 1425, married William de
Caldicote.


III. Elizabeth de Caldicote, born say 1405, dispensed to marry in 1421
William de Livingston.


If the above pedigree fits the known facts, then I fail to see how
Walter de Tweedy can possibly have married a daughter of James Douglas
(died 1420), and his 1st wife, Agnes Dunbar, which couple were married
c. 1372. Walter de Tweedy may have married James Douglas' sister, but
he is not likely to have married his daughter. In fact, Walter de
Tweedy was almost certainly older by some years older than James
Douglas.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

My response:

Never claimed such parentage. I mentioned Freeman's identification
including Agnes Dunbar, and then noted explicitly my problem with this, stating, "
While the possibility that Agnes Dunbar could have been the ancestress of
Elizabeth de Caldcotis is unlikely from a chronological basis,... " Further, the
chart I gave in my conjecture showed distincly that only a prior wife, or
mistress, could have been both daughter of Sir James Douglas of Dalkeith (d.
1420) and mother of Christiana (Tweedie) de Caldecote, to-wit:

" [ NOTE: this chart is conjectural. Conjectured
relationships are denoted _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ]


NN ~ Sir James Douglas of Dalkeith = 1) Agnes Dunbar
_ _ _ I d. 1420 _________I_______________
I I I
NN = Walter Tweedie Agnes = Sir John Sir James
[Douglas?] I of Drumelzier Douglas I Livingston 'uncle'
_ _ _ _ _I____________ d. aft I k. Homildon <*>
I I I 1421 I 1402
James Elizabeth Christian I
Tweedie 'neptem' = William I
of Sir de Caldcotis I
James I I
Douglas <*> I I
Elizabeth = William Livingston
de Caldcotis I of Kilsyth
m. bef 12 Nov 1421 I d. bef 20 Apr 1460
I
V


Sir James Douglas had a known daughter Margaret, either illegitimate or
by the unknown 'pre-Dunbar' wife. She was married before October 1372 to
Philip de Arbuthnot (or Aberbuthnott as you prefer): she further had given birth
to two or more daughters by the time of her father's will dated 30 September
1390, which provided ' for one of the daughters of Philip de Aberbuthnott, for
her maritagium, 10 l. ' [" Item do lego une filiarum Philippi de Aberbuthnow ad
suum maritagium decem libras.." - Bannatyne Misc. II:110].

If you remove the Dunbar issue, the squeeze is not quite so tight.....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



Next, you have mentioned a 1434 charter in which James Douglas the
younger, 2nd Lord of Dalkeith, refers to an Elizabeth de Tweedy, wife
of Richard Brown, as his "neptem" (presumably niece or granddaughter
intended). This charter does not state Elizabeth de Tweedy's
parentage. You have placed Elizabeth de Tweedy as a full sister to
Christian de Tweedy, wife of William de Caldicote, but I don't see why
you have done this. Elizabeth de Tweedy was almost certainly a
granddaughter, not daughter of Walter de Tweedy above. In fact, she
could easily have been a great-granddaughter. And, if Elizabeth de
Tweedy was married in 1434 (which I suspect is the case), it seems
impossible that she would be the sister of Christian de Tweedy, wife of
William de Caldicote, who was an aged widow in 1425.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

My response:

I wouldn't draw too much certainty from too few facts. As you noted
before, we don't have more than the extract of the 1434 charter, so I wouldn't
infer that the Elizabeth Tweedie in question was married in 1434 - she could
have been married some time before that. Her possibly being a younger child,
much younger than Christiana, is not unreasonable, but again we are inferring too
much at this point I think.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


If so, the connection between the Tweedy and Douglas families indicated
by the 1434 charter would have come at least a generation too late to
figure in the ancestry of your Elizabeth de Caldicote, wife of William
de Livingston. Thus, another explanation must be found to explain the
3rd degree of kinship which existed between Elizabeth de Caldicote and
William de Livingston.


Lastly, I believe there were two successive men named Walter de Tweedy.
The first one was active in the period, 1373-1388. The second Walter
de Tweedy occurs in a record in 1434, with his son and heir apparent,
James, which James was dispensed to marry in 1420. For reasons not
known to me, the Tweedie website collapses the two Walter's into one
person. The Walter who was Sheriff in 1373 would surely not be the
same person who was Walter with a son and heir, James, which James
married in 1420.


I would think that Elizabeth de Tweedy, wife of Richard Brown, was a
daughter of the younger Walter de Tweedy, of Drummelzier, living 1434,
by his wife, _____, daughter of James Douglas, lord of Dalkeith (died
1420). Elizabeth de Tweedy's brother, James de Tweedy, would have thus
been named for his maternal grandfather, James Douglas.


Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Hope the foregoing is helpful. More to follow, as time allows.

Cheers,

John


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