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From: "John P. Ravilious" <>
Subject: Re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye
Date: 19 May 2006 04:10:15 -0700
References: <419.179b068.319e4d1c@aol.com> <c2426c294e.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <c2426c294e.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>


Dear Tim,

I have to leave for an extended period, and will post more
extended details later.

But, Gerard had a brother (evidently younger) Richard, re: whom I
have:


of Benham, co. Berks.

witness to charter of his brother 'Gerard de Camvilla' dated 1176-83,
addressed to Richard bishop of Chester confirming gift of their father
Richard to the monks of St. Mary of Cumba, ca. 1176-83 - A2A,
Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of Stivichall
[DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite: DR10/194

" Ricardus de Camuill' ", granted a charter to Richard Pipard restoring
land in Stanton Harcourt, co. Oxon. which his grandfather Sir Leger had
held by the gift of Richard de Camville and Milicent his wife (parents
of Richard de Camville), dated at Stanton (est. 1176-1191, but before
1191 when on crusade) [Loyd p. 29, No. 42]

companion of Richard I on the Third Crusade; with Robert de Sable,
commander of the main flotilla (63 ships) sailing to Marseilles to
embark Richard I for the crusade (July 1190)
governor [Justiciar] of the island of Cyprus with Robert de Thornham
following its conquest, June 1191,
died in Palestine according to sources; in Cyprus according to
Runciman, given his administration there

cf. Runciman, Hist. of the Crusades
J. Gillingham, Richard I (Yale Eng. Monarchs series)

======================================

Re: Gerard de Camville, see the DNB article there. The details
I show at present:


lord of Camville

Charter of Gerard de Camvilla dated 1176-83, addressed to Richard
bishop of Chester, confirming to God and St. Mary of Cumba and the
monks of the Cistercian order there serving God, the gift which his
father Richard de Camvilla made to the said abbey, namely the whole
land of Smita to found an abbey of the Cistercian order, with demesne
and other appurtenances in wood and plain, in ways and paths, in land
and water, in meadows and pastures, and in free alms quit from all
earthly service and secular exactions.
Witnesses: Walter de Camvilla, William de Camvill', Richard de
Camvill' his brothers, John de Curci, Simon de Blossevilla. '
[ Seal on tag: circular, brown, c. 2¾ ins. diameter. A ?lion
passant.
Note : For date and seal: see Sir Christopher Hatton's Book of Seals,
p. 8.] - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of
Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite: DR10/194

sheriff of Lincolnshire, 1189, and again 1199-1205

according to Inq.p.m. (for later tenant), he 'intruded upon the manor'
of Benham, co. Berks. following the death of his brother Richard [the
manor then escheating to the crown, with Hugh Wake being enfeoffed by
King Richard I]

a supporter of John, count of Mortain in the absence of Richard:
' Longchamp [William, bp of Ely and regent] in 1191 removed him
from the shrievalty [of Lincolnshire], and attempted to reduce
Lincoln Castle; but it was stoutly defended by Nicholaa,
Camville himself being with John until the fall of Nottingham and
Tickhill compelled Longchamp to raise the siege. Camville was
excommunicated the same year. On Richard's return in 1194
he was deprived of the wardenship of Lincoln Castle and the
shrievalty of the county, and was arraigned by Longchamp
at Nottingham on a charge of harbouring robbers and
treating the king's writ with contempt. His estates were
forfeited, but he recovered them on payment of a fine of
2,000 marks. His wife also paid a fine of 200 marks...
On the accession of John, Camville was reappointed
warden of Lincoln Castle and sheriff of the county, and
purchased from the king for 1,000 marks the lands of
Thomas de Verdun and the wardship of his widow, with
liberty to marry her to his son Richard. ' [DNB p. 856]

recorded as Sheriff of Lincolnshire, 1200-01:
' 302. Lincolnshire:- Gerard de Canville (Hubert fitz Richard for
him) renders his accunt. ' [Bain I:48, cites Pipe Roll 2 John, Rot. 6]

also shown by Anthony Wagner, pedigree of 'English Ancestors of Edward
IV'
first husband of Nichola de la Haye (cf. CP IV:118, sub Deincourt)

had a charter for a market at Stoney Middleton, co. Oxon:
' (Grant: other) gr 1201, by K John to Gerard de Camville (VCH
Oxfordshire, vi, p. 245). '

cf. Painter, p. 84

=====================================


More to follow; I think the problem is, too many Richards (de
Camville).

Cheers,

John



Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
> In message of 18 May, wrote:
>
>
> > (I had written:)
> >
> > > The new-ish Oxford Dictionary of National Biography has Alice as
> > > the first wife of Richard de Camville and the mother of Gerard.
> > > They say that Millicent was the second wife and the mother of
> > > Richard de Camville who died in 1191.
> > >
> > > Should a correction be sent in to ODNB?
> > >
> >
> > ========================
> >
> >
> > Evidently such a correction is needed. Following is a
> > pedigree which follows the descent of Brattleby, Lincs. from the
> > Domesday tenant Colswein, through Nichole de la Haye, to Nichole's
> > granddaughter Idoine de Camville (wife of Sir William Longespee).
> > This is based in large part on the work of I. J. Sanders and
> > K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, as noted.
>
> <snip>
>
> > 1.1.1.1.1 Nicole de la Haye[1]
> > ----------------------------------------
> > Death: 1230[8]
>
> <snip>
>
> > Spouse: Gerard de Camville[1]
> > Birth: ca 1150
> > Death: 1214[8]
> > Father: Richard de Camville (-ca1176)
> > Mother: Millicent of Rethel (ca1110-)
> > Marr: bef 1185[8]
> >
> > Children: Richard (-<1230)
>
>
> But DD (Domesday Descendants) says, p. 378, that Millicent the second
> wife of Richard de Camville was the mother of Richard II de Camville.
> This confirms what is in ODNB.
>
> For Richard I de Camville, pp. 378-9, DD gives his two wives and three
> children but does not say which wife was mother to which child, though
> it does say that Alice was the first wife and Millicent the second.
> Gerard was Richard I's successor so it sounds as if he was the son of
> Alice, particularly as Richard II is the only son given above to
> Millicent.
>
> I cannot find anything in Sanders' English Baronies to help as the
> part-fee of Brattleby did not go through Gerard de Camville's parents.
>
> Can you give a closer fix on the document that would clarify that Gerard
> was the son of Millcent?
>
> --
> Tim Powys-Lybbe
> For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org


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