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From:
Subject: re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye
Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 13:47:18 EDT


Saturday, 20 May, 2006


Dear Tim (et al.),

Getting back to the issues you raised re: my prior de Camville
posts, and taking some time to review my data vs. your queries, I
see where I was confusing my view of 3 Richards (de Camville) vs.
the 2 (father and son) I believe you were referencing. I agree,
that as to the son Richard, the tenure of Brattleby actually has
no bearing.

I do not have a copy of DD to hand, and know nothing of the
Alice (alleged first wife of Richard 'I' de Camville). Isabel de
Camville was clearly a daughter of Millicent of Rethel (evidently
2nd wife, formerly m. to Robert Marmion, murdered ca. 1144) given
her maritagium in Stanton Harcourt: there is some basis for
assigning Richard as a son of Millicent as well. That being said,
given the chronology of the career of Gerard de Camville and of
his son Richard (who was probably born ca. 1170/1180 based on his
marriage to Eustache Bisset), I don't see any particular reason to
attribute Gerard's birth to a period before 1145.

I do wonder about the DD article, if it assigns only 3 children
to Richard 'I' de Camville: I show six, including 4 sons. Could you
advise of the particulars from this entry, including the children
identified? There seems to be something (and someones) missing.

Following is a pedigree as I currently have it, from Richard 'I'
de Camville's maternal grandfather Aubrey (Alberic) de Ver down to
the children, and some grandchildren, of Richard. I'd be interested
in any additional documentation re: same, or any errors that might
be noted (incl. further particulars on the alleged first wife Alice).

Cheers,

John






1 Aubrey de Ver
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1113[1]
Burial: Colne Priory, Essex[1]

styled Aubrey the chamberlain ('Alberici camerarii') as witness of royal
charter, 1084

received grant from King William of estates of a thegn Wulfwine in
north Essex, south Suffolk and Cambridgeshire; held Kensington in
Middlesex, and other lands of Conan, Count of Brittany
held in chief 14 manors in Essex, with 2 houses and 3 acres in
Colchester, 9 estates in Suffolk, 7 in Cambs. and 2 in Hunts.;
and held Kensington in Middlesex and two properties in Northants.
of the Bishop of Coutances, and lands in Hunts. of the Abbot of
Ramsey, and in Essex of Count Alan of Brittany, at Domesday
Book, 1086[1]

a tenant of the Bishop of Coutances in Normandy, 1086.
Sheriff of Berkshire, as 'Aubrey de Berkshire' after 1106[1]

Spouse: Beatrice[1]

Children: Aubrey de Vere (<1090-1141), chamberlain of England
NN, a daughter
Robert


1.1 NN de Ver
----------------------------------------

re: her son Richard de Camville, KSB Keats-Rohan wrote:
" His mother was a daughter of Alberic de Vere (cf. Rot. de Dom.
84 an note; Comp. Peer. x, App. J., n. j.), as may be inferred from
the descent of his Domesday manor of Hildersham as the marriage
portion of Matilda de Ros, daughter of Richard; Matilda granted
land there to Clerkenwell priory, c. 1190 when her daughter
Beatrice became a nun and the grant was confirmed by
Alberic III de Ver (Cart. Clerkenwell, 24-26).' [DD 378][2]

Spouse: NN de Camville


Children: Richard (-ca1176)

1.1.1 Richard de Camville
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1176[3]

of Stanton, Oxon.[1]
2nd husband of Milicent of Rethel, widow of Robert Marmion[4]

'...Ric(ardo) de Canuilla,...' witness to King Stephen's confirmation
and award of lands at Ickleton, Brookhampton and `Willecroft',
ca. 1145-1150[5]

' Richard de Kanvilla ', witness together with his son Gerard of
Charter of Robert son of Ralph de Bileneie [Binley] confirming
the gift of his brother Joillinus to the monks of Cumba, dated
ca. 1161-1182 - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office:
Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite:
DR10/193[6]

founder of Combe Abbey, co. Warwicks. [DD 378-9][2]:
confirmation by Roger de Mowbray:
' Charter of Roger de Molb'io [Mowbray] addressed to Walter [Durdent]
Bishop of Coventry. confirming to the monks of Cumba in free alms
all the land of Smita given to the said monks for the founding of a
Cistercian abbey by Richard de Camvill' who held the land of the
said Roger for the service of one knight. This the said Roger remits
and agrees to render the service of another knight to the Earl of
Leicester for Brinkelawe [Brinklow] so that the monks shall owe the
said Roger no secular service. The said Roger also grants the dead
wood in his wood of Burtleia [Birchly Wood in Brinklow] together
with rights of pasture and pannage.
Witnesses: Roger de Flamvill', Herbert de Morevill', Richard his
son, William de Arches, Robert de Daivill', Bertrand Haget, William
his son, William de Camvill', Ralph de Belveir, Robert his brother,
Ralph de Betlum and many others.
[ Lower part of tag and seal cut away. Endorsed: i) Carta Rogerii
de Molbraio de Smita [contemp]; ii) Tenura de Brink' per ius
feodi --- Burteley pannagium et pastura [AG]. ] -
A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of
Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite: DR10/194[6]

Spouse: Millicent of Rethel[1],[4]
Birth: ca 1110[4]
Father: Gervase of Rethel (-1124)
Mother: Elizabeth of Namur (->1141)
Marr: aft 1143[4]

Children: Maud (ca1145-)
Gerard (ca1150-1214)
Isabel
Richard (-1191)
Walter
William


1.1.1.1 Maud de Camville
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1145[2]

'Matilda de Ros', had the manor of Hildersham (or a moiety thereof)
as her maritagium; she granted land there to Clerkenwell priory,
ca. 1190 when her daughter Beatrice became a nun. (confirmed by Aubrey
III de Vere) [DD 378-9, citing Cart. Clerkenwell, 24-26[2]]

Spouse: William de Ros

Children: Beatrice


1.1.1.2 Gerard de Camville[7]
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1150
Death: 1214[4]

lord of Camville

Charter of Gerard de Camvilla dated 1176-83, addressed to Richard
bishop of Chester, confirming to God and St. Mary of Cumba and the
monks of the Cistercian order there serving God, the gift which his
father Richard de Camvilla made to the said abbey, namely the whole
land of Smita to found an abbey of the Cistercian order, with
demesne and other appurtenances in wood and plain, in ways and paths,
in land and water, in meadows and pastures, and in free alms quit
from all earthly service and secular exactions.
Witnesses: Walter de Camvilla, William de Camvill', Richard de
Camvill' his brothers, John de Curci, Simon de Blossevilla. '
[ Seal on tag: circular, brown, c. 2¾ ins. diameter. A ?lion passant.
Note : For date and seal: see Sir Christopher Hatton's Book of Seals,
p. 8.] - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory
of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite: DR10/194[6]

sheriff of Lincolnshire, 1189[8], and again 1199-1205[9]

according to Inq.p.m. (for later tenant), he 'intruded upon the manor'
of Benham, co. Berks. following the death of his brother Richard
[the manor then escheating to the crown, with Hugh Wake being
enfeoffed by King Richard I][3]

a supporter of John, count of Mortain in the absence of Richard:
' Longchamp [William, bp of Ely and regent] in 1191 removed him
from the shrievalty [of Lincolnshire], and attempted to reduce
Lincoln Castle; but it was stoutly defended by Nicholaa,
Camville himself being with John until the fall of Nottingham and
Tickhill compelled Longchamp to raise the siege. Camville was
excommunicated the same year. On Richard's return in 1194
he was deprived of the wardenship of Lincoln Castle and the
shrievalty of the county, and was arraigned by Longchamp
at Nottingham on a charge of harbouring robbers and
treating the king's writ with contempt. His estates were
forfeited, but he recovered them on payment of a fine of
2,000 marks. His wife also paid a fine of 200 marks...
On the accession of John, Camville was reappointed
warden of Lincoln Castle and sheriff of the county, and
purchased from the king for 1,000 marks the lands of
Thomas de Verdun and the wardship of his widow, with
liberty to marry her to his son Richard. ' [DNB p. 856[10]]

recorded as Sheriff of Lincolnshire, 1200-01:
' 302. Lincolnshire:- Gerard de Canville (Hubert fitz Richard for
him) renders his accunt. ' [Bain I:48[11], cites Pipe Roll 2 John,
Rot. 6]

also shown by Anthony Wagner, pedigree of 'English Ancestors of
Edward IV'[7]
first husband of Nichola de la Haye (cf. CP IV:118, sub Deincourt)[1]

had a charter for a market at Stoney Middleton, co. Oxon:
' (Grant: other) gr 1201, by K John to Gerard de Camville (VCH
Oxfordshire, vi, p. 245). '[12]

cf. Painter, p. 84[9]

Spouse: Nicole de la Haye[7]
Death: 1230[4]
Father: Richard de la Haye (->1189)
Mother: Matilda de Vernon (ca1128-)
Marr: bef 1185[4]

Children: Richard (-<1230)


1.1.1.2.1 Richard de Camville[7]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1230, d.v.m.[13]

of Avington, co. Berks., Godington, Stoney Middleton, and Stratton,
co. Oxon.
lord of Camville

his father purchased the marriage of Eustache Basset, widow of
Thomas de Verdun in 1199 (Paul Reed, FASG citing the Pipe
Rolls)[14],[10]


a record from the plea rolls, 1207/8:

' Curia Regis Roll. Mich. 9. John, m. 4.

Oxon. - The Prior of Kenilworth sued Nicholas de Verdun (called
to warranty by Richard de Canvill and Eustachia, his wife) for
the next presentation to the church of Hethe.

Lecelina de Clinton.
I
Bertram de Verdun.
_______I___________________________________________________
I I
Thomas de Verdun, = Eustachia. = Richard de Nicholas de Verdun,
first husband, Canvill, the defendant.
ob. s.p. second husband.

' [Gen XX:165[15]]


Spouse: Eustache Basset[1]
Father: Gilbert Basset (-<1205)
Mother: Egeline de Courtenay
Marr: ca 1199[14],[10]

Children: Idoine (-<1252)


1.1.1.2.1.1 Idoine de Camville
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 21 Sep 1252[16]

heiress of her father[1], and her grandmother Nichola de la Haye[13]

evidently also heiress of her mother - the manor of Wretchwick, Oxon.
was part of the maritagium of her daughter Ela (m. James de Audley),
and her husband William Longespee had a charter for a market at
Bicester granted 20 Oct 1239[12]

her inheritance included the manor of Brattleby, Lincs. (CP XI:385)[1]
and a third part of the manor of Shalford, co. Surrey [see suit
brought by Ingram de Preaux, Sept 1226 - Eyton, V:291][17]

Spouse: Sir William Longespee
Death: 7 Feb 1249, battle of Mansura, Egypt (on crusade)[16]
Birth: bef 12 May 1205[18]
Father: William Longespee (ca1175-1225)
Mother: Ela of Salisbury (ca1187-1261)
Marr: aft Apr 1216[1]

Children: Sir William (-1257)
Ela (-<1299)
Ida (->1261)
Richard (-<1261)


1.1.1.3 Isabel de Camville
----------------------------------------

lady of Stanton, co. Oxon[1]
(received Stanton as her maritagium from her mother)[4]

called daughter and eventual heir of Richard de Camville 'the
younger' (her brother) in Loyd (p. 29, No. 42[19]), but the
chronology and her maritagium make her identification as shown
certain.

Spouse: Robert de Harcourt
Death: ca 1206[2]
Father: Ivo de Harcourt (->1166)
Mother: NN

Children: Alice (->1212)
William (-1228)


1.1.1.4 Richard de Camville
----------------------------------------
Death: 1191, probably Cyprus (on crusade)[20],[21]

of Benham, co. Berks.

witness to charter of his brother 'Gerard de Camvilla' dated
1176-83, addressed to Richard bishop of Chester confirming
gift of their father Richard to the monks of St. Mary of Cumba,
ca. 1176-83 - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office:
Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite:
DR10/194[6]

" Ricardus de Camuill' ", granted a charter to Richard Pipard
restoring land in Stanton Harcourt, co. Oxon. which his
grandfather Sir Leger had held by the gift of Richard de
Camville and Milicent his wife (parents of Richard de Camville),
dated at Stanton (est. 1176-1191, but before 1191 when on crusade)
[Loyd p. 29, No. 42[19]]

companion of Richard I on the Third Crusade; with Robert de Sable,
commander of the main flotilla (63 ships) sailing to Marseilles
to embark Richard I for the crusade (July 1190)
governor [Justiciar] of the island of Cyprus with Robert de
Thornham following its conquest, June 1191[20],[21]
died in Palestine according to sources[3]; in Cyprus according to
Runciman[21], given his administration there[20]

Children: John


1.1.1.5 Walter de Camville
----------------------------------------

witness to charter of his brother 'Gerard de Camvilla' dated
1176-83, addressed to Richard bishop of Chester confirming gift
of their father Richard to the monks of St. Mary of Cumba, ca.
1176-83 - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office:
Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite:
DR10/194[6]


1.1.1.6 William de Camville[1]
----------------------------------------

witness to charter of his brother 'Gerard de Camvilla' dated
1176-83, addressed to Richard bishop of Chester confirming gift
of their father Richard to the monks of St. Mary of Cumba, ca.
1176-83 - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office:
Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite:
DR10/194[6]

cf. DNB 856-7 (de Camville, Thomas)[10]

Spouse: Aubree Marmion
Death: aft 1232[1]
Father: Geoffrey Marmion

Children: Geoffrey (-1219)
NN
Thomas (-1235)



1. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
2. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants," The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002, cited by Rosie Bevan, 'Re: de Stuteville' Jul
2, 2002, p. 723 (Osmund de Stuteville), full title: Domesday
Descendants: A Prosopography of Persons, Occurring in English
Documents 1066-1166: Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum.
3. Cristopher Nash, "de Camville (Results and Thanks)," June 2,
2000, , commentary on research of
Dexter Kenfield, pub. May 31, 2000, cites Inquisitions Post
Mortem Henry III, 1904, 294,, item 658 - C. Hen. III. File 44. (11).
4. Alan B. Wilson, "Marmions in the Ancestry of Thomas Bradbury,"
Apr 14, 1997, , reposted as "Re:
Marmion Question", Aug 28, 1999, Alan B. Wilson
{}.
5. Nicholas Vincent, "New Charters of King Stephen with Some
Reflections upon the Royal Forests During the Anarchy," The
English Historical Review, Feb. 1999, cites charters of reign
of King Stephen not previously identified, or published:
incl. Confirmation of gifts made by Earl William de Warenne,
PRO, E 159/99 (Memoranda Roll, 18 Edward II), m.149d, recited
before the Exchequer.
6. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
7. "Pedigree and Progress," Sir Anthony Wagner, London: Phillimore
& Co., Ltd., 1975.
8. Cristopher Nash, "Which Richard de Camville married Millicent?,"
May 31, 2000, , resp. to email, Dexter
Kenfield ().
9. Sidney Painter, "The Reign of King John," Baltimore: The Johns
Hopkins Press, 1949.
10. "Gerard de Camville [article]," Dictionary of National Biography,
Oxford Univ. Press, p. 856: Gerard de Camville.
11. Joseph Bain, ed., "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,"
Edinburgh: Her Majesty's General Register House, 1881 (Vol. I),
full title: Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, Preserved
in Her Majesty's Public Record Office, London.
12. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516," www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
13. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and Descent,
1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
14. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Clemence Dauntsey," Nov 16, 2001,
, information also posted by Todd A.
Farmerie.
15. Hon. George Wrottesley, "Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls," The
Genealogist (N.S.), Vol. XX, 1904, pp. 28 et seq.
16. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215,"
Baltimore: Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David
Faris).
17. "Antiquities of Shropshire," The Rev. R. W. Eyton, London: John
Russell Smith, 1855, Vol. 5 - p. 242 (Ludlow), pp. 132 (Banaster)
and 133-142 (Barony of Hastings), Vol. 6 - pp. 350-359 (Meole Brace
and de Bracy).
18. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Re: Two Ida Longespee's: Same Generation,"
Sept 14, 2002, , re: Idoine de Camville,
cites Farrer (Honors and Knights' Fees 2:222), Farrer citing R.
Lit.Claus 2:110b, 123 [Close Rolls].
19. Lewis C. Loyd and Doris M. Stenton, eds., "Sir Christopher
Hatton's Book of Seals," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1950.
20. "Richard I," John Gillingham, New Haven: Yale University Press,
1999, 129, 152 (de Camville), Yale English Monarchs series.
21. Sir Steven Runciman, "A History of the Crusades (3 vols),"
Cambridge Univ. Press, 1954.



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