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From:
Subject: re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye
Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 09:25:44 EDT


Sunday, 21 May, 2006


Dear Tim (et al.),

It would be of great interest to see the 'original' texts, given
the divergent placement of Isabel de Camville as alternately dau. of
Richard 'I' or 'II' de Camville.

For some additional evidence, I prepared a pedigree from
Millicent of Rethel and Richard 'I' de Camville to their great-great
granddaughter (2 greats acc. to CP and Keats-Rohan) Isabel Mauduit,
heiress (in her issue) of the Earldom of Warwick. By my reckoning,
for the one group of generations we have a reasonable chance of
placing in an accurate chronological framework, we would have a
two-generation span, with Isabel de Camville [as daughter of
Millicent of Rethel) being born say 1145/1150, and her granddaughter
(my reckoning) Alice de Newburgh being born say 1197/1205, of
between say 60 (1145 to 1205) and 47 (1150 to 1197) years. These
numbers give average generational spans of between say 30 and 23.5
years, which are certainly reasonable.

If we add in an additional generation (with Richard 'II' de
Camville, as per Keats-Rohan and CP, being born say 1145/50 and as
the father of Isabel de Camville), from Richard to his then
great-granddaughter Alice de Newburgh we would have a
three-generation span of between say 60 (1145 to 1205) and 47
(1150 to 1197) years. These numbers give average generational
spans of between say 20 and 15.6 years, which are not unreasonable.

Short of finding some other dates involving these individuals
which would serve to make the additional generation (Richard 'II')
definite, or rule it out completely, I think a read of the original
documentation is needed.

Cheers,

John



1 Richard de Camville
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1176[1]
Father: NN de Camville
Mother: NN de Ver

of Stanton, Oxon.[2]
2nd husband of Milicent of Rethel, widow of Robert Marmion[3]

'...Ric(ardo) de Canuilla,...' witness to King Stephen's
confirmation and award of lands at Ickleton, Brookhampton and
`Willecroft', ca. 1145-1150[4]

' Richard de Kanvilla ', witness together with his son Gerard of
Charter of Robert son of Ralph de Bileneie [Binley] confirming
the gift of his brother Joillinus to the monks of Cumba, dated
ca. 1161-1182 - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office:
Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite:
DR10/193[5]

founder of Combe Abbey, co. Warwicks. [DD 378-9][6]:

Spouse: Millicent of Rethel[2],[3]
Birth: ca 1110[3]
Father: Gervase of Rethel (-1124)
Mother: Elizabeth of Namur (->1141)
Marr: aft 1143[3]

Children: Maud (ca1145-)
Gerard (ca1150-1214)
Isabel
Richard (-1191)
Walter
William


1.1 Isabel de Camville
----------------------------------------

~ her placement as a daughter of Richard 'I' de Camville
(vs. as a daughter of Richard 'II' de Camville, as per
CP and KSB Keats-Rohan) is currently under study.

lady of Stanton, co. Oxon[2]
(received Stanton as her maritagium from her mother)[3]

called daughter and eventual heir of Richard de Camville
'the younger' (her brother) in Loyd (p. 29, No. 42[7]), but
the chronology and her maritagium make her identification as
shown certain.

Spouse: Robert de Harcourt, of Bosworth, co. Leicester
Death: ca 1206[6]
Father: Ivo de Harcourt (->1166)
Mother: NN

Children: Alice (->1212)
William (-1228)


1.1.1a Alice de Harcourt*
----------------------------------------
Death: aft Aug 1212[2]

she m. lstly John de Limesey [Limesi], of Cavendish,
2ndly Waleran de Newburgh (his 2nd wife)[2]

Spouse: John de Limesi [1st husband]
Death: 1193, d.s.p.[6]
Father: Gerard de Limesi (-<1185)
Mother: Amicia de Bidun (ca1124-)


1.1.1b Alice de Harcourt* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Waleran de Newburgh, Earl of Warwick [2nd husband]
Death: bef 13 Oct 1204[2]
Father: Roger de Newburgh (-1153)
Mother: Gundreda de Warenne (->1165)
Marr: ca 1196[2]

Children: Alice (-<1263)


1.1.1b.1 Alice de Newburgh
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1263[2]

heiress (in her issue) of the Earldom of Warwick

Spouse: William Mauduit, of Hanslope, co. Bucks., Hartley
Mauduit, co. Hants. and Westminster, Middlesex
Death: bef 14 Feb 1256[2]
Father: Robert Mauduit (-1222)
Mother: Isabel Basset

Children: Isabel (-<1268)
William Mauduit, Earl of Warwick (d.s.p.)


1.1.1b.1.1 Isabel Mauduit
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1268[2]

heiress (in her issue) of the Mauduit lands and the Earldom
of Warwick[2]

Spouse: William de Beauchamp
Death: aft 7 Jan 1268[2],[8]
Father: Walter de Beauchamp (-1236)
Mother: NN

Children: William de Beauchamp, 9th Earl of Warwick
Sarah
Walter (-1303)
Joan
Isabel (-1306)
John


1. Cristopher Nash, "de Camville (Results and Thanks)," June 2, 2000,
, commentary on research of Dexter
Kenfield, pub. May 31, 2000, cites Inquisitions Post Mortem
Henry III, 1904, 294,, item 658 - C. Hen. III. File 44. (11).
2. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
3. Alan B. Wilson, "Marmions in the Ancestry of Thomas Bradbury,"
Apr 14, 1997, , reposted as "Re:
Marmion Question", Aug 28, 1999, Alan B. Wilson
{}.
4. Nicholas Vincent, "New Charters of King Stephen with Some
Reflections upon the Royal Forests During the Anarchy," The
English Historical Review, Feb. 1999, cites charters of reign
of King Stephen not previously identified, or published:
incl. Confirmation of gifts made by Earl William de Warenne,
PRO, E 159/99 (Memoranda Roll, 18 Edward II), m.149d, recited
before the Exchequer.
5. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
6. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants," The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002, cited by Rosie Bevan, 'Re: de Stuteville' Jul
2, 2002, p. 723 (Osmund de Stuteville), full title: Domesday
Descendants: A Prosopography of Persons, Occurring in English
Documents 1066-1166: Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum.
7. Lewis C. Loyd and Doris M. Stenton, eds., "Sir Christopher
Hatton's Book of Seals," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1950.
8. Alan B. Wilson, "Beauchamps of Salwarpe," January 11, 1999,
paper copy: library of John Ravilious, cites Sanders, English
Baronies pp. 75-6 as to ancestry of Beauchamp, of Salwarpe;
also CP; and Turton,, Plantagenet Ancestry, pp. 97, 117.



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