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From: "John P. Ravilious" <>
Subject: Re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye
Date: 22 May 2006 16:43:58 -0700
References: <426.1d74dbe.31a39831@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <426.1d74dbe.31a39831@aol.com>


Dear Will,

Not sure where your date for your date for Richard de Camville ("
ca 1135 ", or 1110 + 25 ?) comes from. The chronology for Millicent of
Rethel, while not set in stone, is tied somewhat to her former marital
history with Robert Marmion, and the careers of their two children.

See the relevant 2-generation pedigree below.

Cheers,

John


1 Robert Marmion
----------------------------------------
Birth:ca 1095[1]
Death:ca 1144, Coventry (murdered)[2],[1]
Father:Roger Marmion (-ca1130)

seigneur of Fontenay-le-Marmion and lord of Tamworth, co. Warwick[2]

his castle of Fontenay destroyed by the Count of Anjou, 1140[2]

' Robertus Marmiun', gave his manor of 'Buteyate' to the monastery
of St. Oswald of Bardney, together with his wife Melisende and son
Robert ("et Milisent uxor mea, et Robertus filius meus")
[Mon. Angl. I:633, Num. XI[3]]

re: his wife:

shown in CP as Millicent, parentage unknown[2]
received gift of part of Stanton, co. Oxon. from Adeliza of Louvain,
Queen of England, who recognized her as a cousin ["cognata mea"][1]

identification as Millicent of Rethel by Alan B. Wilson[1],[4] :
' Moriarty in TAG xx (Jan, 1944), 255-256, points out that
Alberic, Canon of Huyon-sur-Meuse states that Clarembald de
Rosoy, who m. Elizabeth de Namur after the death of Gervase in
1124, in order to disinherit her, married the only daughter of
Gervase out of the country to a certain noble of Normandy named
Robert Marmion. But Alberic does not give the name of the
daughter or specify which Robert Marmion was her husband. The
daughter of Count Gervase was married about 1132/3, so
chronologically it would more likely be to Robert I than to
Robert II. The mother of Count Gervase of Rethel was Milicent
of Montlhery. Thus Milicent, the wife of Robert I could have
been named for her paternal grandmother.
Queen Adeliza of Louvain, wife of Henry I, gave part of
Stanton, Co. Oxon, to Milicent, wife of Robert Marmion, "cognata
mea." Stanton passed with Isabel, dau. of Milicent and Richard
de Camville to her husband, Robert de Harcourt as her
maritagium, and Stanton Harcourt has subsequently remained in
that family. Queen Adeliza was a second cousin of the daughter
of Gervase, both being descended from Albert III de Namur, d.
1102, & Ida of Saxony.
Moriarty concludes, in view of these arguments, that it was
Robert I who married the daughter of the Count of Rethel, and
that her name was Milicent. This corrects Palmer, "History of
the Baronial Family of Marmion," 1875, Watson (The Genealogist,
n.s., xiv, 70), Clay in "Complete Peerage" (vii, 509), and, of
course, although not then published, ES, iii, 625.'[4]

'Milisent uxor mea', benefactor (together with her husband Robert
Marmion and son Robert) of the monastery of St. Oswald of Bardney
[Mon. Angl. I:633, Num. XI[3]]

she m. 1stly Robert Marmion,
2ndly Richard de Camville[4]

Spouse:Millicent of Rethel[2],[1]
Birth:ca 1110[1]
Father:Gervase of Rethel (-1124)
Mother:Elizabeth of Namur (->1141)
Marr:bef 1130[1]

Children:Robert (<1133-<1181)
Mabel (-<1211)


1.1 Robert Marmion
----------------------------------------
Birth:bef 1133[1],[5]
Death:bef Nov 1181[2]

of Tamworth, co. Warwick

' Robertus filius meus', party to the grant by his father Robert
Marmion of the manor of Buteyate to the monastery of St. Oswald
of Bardney, 1144 or shortly before [Mon. Angl. I:633, Num. XI[3]]

exchanged manors of Avon and Ditchampton, co. Wilts. and the
honour of Llanstephan, co. Carmarthen with his uncle Geoffrey
for Winteringham and Scrivelsby, co. Lincoln[2]

had a charter from Ranulf II, earl of Chester of the earl's
lands and appurtenances in Coventry, ca. 1145-50 [Coss, p. 11,
no. 1[5]]

Spouse:Maud de Beauchamp[1]
Father:William de Beauchamp (-1170)
Mother:NN

Children:Robert Marmion, of Tamworth & c.(-<1218)


1.2 Mabel Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death:bef 1211[2]

had lands in Sussex as her marriage portion
[CP IX:258 - Mortimer, p. 258n][2]

Spouse:Hugh de Say
Death:ca 1197[2],[6]
Father:Hugh de Say (-<1191)
Mother:Lucy de Clifford

Children:Margaret de Say(-<1243), m. 1stly Hugh de Ferrieres,
2ndly Robert de Mortimer,
3rdly William de Stuteville


1. Alan B. Wilson, "Marmions in the Ancestry of Thomas Bradbury,"
Apr 14, 1997, , reposted as "Re:
Marmion Question", Aug 28, 1999, Alan B. Wilson
{}.
2. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 -
[microprint, 1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of
England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
3. Sir William Dugdale, "Monasticon Anglicanum," London: Harding &
Lepard; and Longman Rees... Green, 1830, Vol. VI, Pt. 1 -
Austin Abbey of Wigmore, in Herefordshire, pp. 348-356
[Fundationis et Fundatorum Historia], Vol. VI, Pt. 2 -
Priory of Bullington, co. Lincs., pp. 951-954, URL

http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/bibliographia/index.php?function=detail&id=2659
4. Alan B. Wilson, "Re: Beauchamps of Salwarpe," 18 January 1999,
, cites prior work and evidences
re: Marmion of Tamworth, Alan B. Wilson
{}.
5. Peter R. Coss, "The Early Records of Medieval Coventry,"
London: published for The British Academy by Oxford University
Press, The British Academy, Records of Social and Economic
History, New Series vol. XI.
6. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.



wrote:
> In a message dated 5/20/06 10:48:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> writes:
>
> << Spouse: Millicent of Rethel[1],[4]
> Birth: ca 1110[4]
> Father: Gervase of Rethel (-1124)
> Mother: Elizabeth of Namur (->1141)
> Marr: aft 1143[4] >>
>
> I'm not ready to believe that Millicent was at least 25 years older than her
> husband Richard de Camville. I'm of the opinion that the ca 1110 birth was
> only a guess. Now that more evidence has been put out, I would suggest a
> younger date say 1120/25
>
> Will Johnson

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