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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2006-07 > 1154106048


From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <>
Subject: Re: Charlemagne Line??
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 11:00:48 -0600
References: <bda.17b3bc6.31fb7f77@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <bda.17b3bc6.31fb7f77@aol.com>


wrote:
> Hello all, trying to connect to Charlemagne...Can anyone tell me if this
> line is accurate:
>
> Charlemagne - Hildegardis von Vinzgau
> Louis I the Pious - Judith von Bavaria
> Winidilda de Ampurias - Wilfredo I of Barcelona

It breaks right here - Louis and Judith had no such daughter. Although
it has dropped a generation somewhere in its transmission, this appears
to be derived from a late and utterly untrustworthy claim that Winidilda
was granddaughter of Louis and Judith, daughter of Baldwin I of Flanders
and their daughter Judith. Although there are conflicting solutions to
her parentage and I have never studied the specific support for any of
them, it seems most likely that Winidilda was related to the local nobility.

> Suniario I de Brel - Richildis de Rouergue
> Borrell II of Barcelona - Leodegarda de Toulouse

These toponyms given the wives are base on the speculation, primarily,
of Szabolcs de Vajay, based on the novel appearance of other names
amoung the sons and daughters of the Counts of Barcelona. There are
alternatives equally supported (or rather, equally unsupported).

> Ramon Borrell - Ermesindis de Carcassonne
> Ramon I Berenger - Gisela de Lluca

The husband's name here is reversed, an obvious typographical/editorial
error that appeared in Szabolcs de Vajay's article addressing these
issues, and has been blindly copied into several later sources. He was
named Berenger Ramon (Berenger being his given name, Ramon being a
patronymic - i.e. his father's name; just as with his father, Ramon
Borrell). It was his son who was the first Ramon Berenger (again, given
name, father's name, but following this generation the patronymic system
began to break down and in the next generation was abandonned completely).

As to his wife, the name that appears in the contemporary documentation
is usually represented as Guisla or Guila. To call her Gisela is to beg
the question - this name later appeared among the Dukes of Burgundy, and
it was hypothesized by de Vajay that it came from her (this was, in
fact, the reason this specific one of Berenger's wives was picked as the
mother of the enigmatic Burgundian bride). However, it is unclear to me
that these names share similar origins let alone represent alternative
forms of the same name: the strong middle syllable in one is missing
from the other, and a Gui beginning of the maid of Lluca would pronounce
more like a Wi (e.g. Guifred = Wifred, Guillaume = William), different
than the Gi beginning of Gisela. If Guisla/Guila is to be equated with
a Frank name, I would think it would be Willa and not Gisela. (Nat - are
you reading this? can you provide any help here?)

> Sibylle de Barcelona - Henry of Burgundy

The name of the wife of Henry is unknown. That she was named Sibylle is
based on an over-interpretation of a charter. A document refered to
"Sibylla, mother of the Duke [of Burgundy]", and it was concluded that
this must be the wife of Henry because she was the only mother of a Duke
who was not herself a Duchess. However, in the context of the document
it would have been quite natural to refer to the mother of the sitting
Duke as such, independent of what the status of her deceased husband.
It instead clearly referd to a Sibylle of a subsequent generation. As
to Henry's wife being from Barcelona, this two is based on names -
specifically the name Borrell, used by the Barcelona Counts, appearing
as the byname of two of her sons. However, Sibylla could just as well
have been maternal granddaughter of Ramon Borrell, a descendat of Wifred
II Borrell (brother of Suniario, above) or a member of one of the other
local families that also used the name, with no apparent relationship to
the Counts of Barcelona.

> Henri de Bourgogne - Teresa de Castilla
> Afonso I of Portugal - Matilda of Savoy

Just off the top of my head, the Savoy route seems the more likely
avenue for a Carolingian descent.

taf

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