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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2006-07 > 1154164349


From: "Peter Stewart" <>
Subject: Re: Charlemagne Line??
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2006 09:17:54 GMT
References: <bda.17b3bc6.31fb7f77@aol.com> <027e01c6b296$018e7670$0300a8c0@Toshiba> <44caa025@news.ColoState.EDU> <02b401c6b29f$eab962c0$0300a8c0@Toshiba> <44cab83e@news.ColoState.EDU> <030401c6b2b6$452f2f30$0300a8c0@Toshiba> <44cada99@news.ColoState.EDU> <nwCyg.2757$rP1.34@news-server.bigpond.net.au>


"Peter Stewart" <> wrote in message
news:nwCyg.2757$...
>
> "Todd A. Farmerie" <> wrote in message
> news:...
>> Leo van de Pas wrote:
>>> Dear Todd,
>>>
>>> What is the correct spelling of the firstname? You show Dalmas, Turton
>>> (page 200) shows Dalmace, ES III/3 434 uses Damas and so does Gaston
>>> Sirjean.
>>
>> I have seen them all and others - typical problem of recasting a medieval
>> name that appears in Latin documents into modern languages in which the
>> name is not current. I don't know that there is a 'correct' spelling.
>>
>>> Which one are you referring to? There are three in that family. It can't
>>> be Damas I, as his mother goes nowhere. Damas II for him I have no
>>> parents, that leaves Damas III, and I have him as mentioned in 1223 no
>>> wife no children. However, in my system it is Damas I, which appears as
>>> an ancestor as nr.18.
>>
>> Yes, and as I did the math, the lines appeared to go through his wife and
>> mother - it appears that I erred in one of the calculations.
>>
>>>
>>> The numbers I gave were 4128, 4896, 8848 and 8944
>>>
>>> 1.Alfonso I King of Portugal
>>> 2.Henri Count of Portugal
>>> 4.Henri de Bourgogne
>>> 8.Robert I Duke of Burgundy
>>> 9.Helie de Semur
>>> 16.Robert II King of France
>>> 17.Constance de Provence
>>> 19.Aremburge de Bourgogne
>>
>> While speculated by Szabolcs de Vajay, I am unaware of direct evidence
>> which shows Arembourge as mother of Helie.
>
> The speculation by Vajay is about the parentage of Aremburg, but I don't
> think there is any doubt that a woman of this name was mother of Helie of
> Semur, the first wife of Duke Robert I of Burgundy. As far as I remember,
> in a life of her brother Hugo, abbot of Cluny, it is made clear that their
> father had only one wife.
>
> Aremburg's family is not recorded, and (going by memory) Vajay was trying
> to make a case that she was a maternal half-sister of Thibaud of Semur,
> count of Chalon, who was called uncle by her sons. However, Count Thibaud
> was a paternal half-brother of Aremburg's husband Dalmas I of Semur, so
> there is no mystery about this, and equally there is no evidence at all
> that his mother Mathild of Chalon was married twice.

In the life of St Hugo the Great, abbot of Cluny, written by his
contemporary Hugo, a monk in his abbey, the parents are named as Dalmas,
seigneur of Semur and Aremburg ("Pater eius fuit Dalmatius, princeps
egregius, Samurensis dominus, mater eius Aremburgis").

I think that Duchess Helie of Burgundy is called "germana" (normally meaning
full sister) to Hugo in another life of the saint, by Gilo, but I don't have
a copy of this to check.

Vajay evidently forgot to follow the descendants of his subjects when
speculating that Aremburg might have been daughter of Mathild of Chalon -
Duchess Helie's daughter Constance married Mathild's grandson Hugo, count of
Chalon, and under Vajay's scheme this couple would have been first cousins
once removed, a union that would have been unthinkable at their time &
place.

Peter Stewart


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