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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2006-09 > 1158188370


From: "Peter Stewart" <>
Subject: Re: Eve d'Harcourt, Dame de Lisors
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 23:05:13 GMT
References: <psneg2hh3c3bhqqi43b624edhqtnhuc8jn@4ax.com> <RhKNg.28020$rP1.19453@news-server.bigpond.net.au> <q42hg2l5bs0a0p4k60r9oucmp8r4135q1o@4ax.com>


"Henry Soszynski" <> wrote in message
news:...
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 02:46:09 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
> <> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Henry Soszynski" <> wrote in message
>>news:...
>>> Greetings,
>>> The above lady is the daughter of Guillaume I
>>> Seigneur d'Harcourt, died 1141/1148, and she is said to have married
>>> Guillaume IV Crispin, Baron du Bec, +1233 and mother of Gullaume V
>>> +ca1263. The chronology appears to make this incorrect, as follows.
>>> Guillaume I bc1100 +1141/1148
>>> Eve b???
>>> Guillaume V bc1215
>>> Can anyone reconcile this apparent discrepancy. The dates of birth are
>>> approximate only and are from the roglo database. Maybe the death date
>>> for Guillaume is incorrect and Eve was born late in life.
>>
>>The Roglo database has apparently missed a generation, confusing Guillaume
>>V
>>Crispin with his son Guillaume VI.
>>
>>Guillaume V fought at Bouvines in 1214 and was born before 1190 when his
>>younger brother Simon witnessed a charter along with him and their father
>>Guillaume IV. Their mother Eve is presumed to have been a sister of Robert
>>d'Harcourt, son of Guillaume. Robert had married Guillaume IV Crispin's
>>sister - just to confuse matters further, she was also named Eve - so that
>>a
>>double alliance in the same generation appears plausible.
>>
>>Guillaume IV Crispin's wife Eve is presumed to belong to the Harcourt
>>family
>>because she carried their possession of Lisors to her husband. She was a
>>donor to Mortemer abbey in 1180, probably around the time she was bearing
>>her three recorded children. Her son Guillaume V was married to his first
>>wife in the lifetime of Pernelle de Montfort, his mother-in-law, who died
>>on
>>3 February 1216, and it is his son Guillaume VI (by his second wife) who
>>_might_ have been born ca 1215 although more probably somewhat later, ca
>>1230.
>>
>>Peter Stewart
>>
> Thanks to you and Will for the input. If Eve was the daughter of
> Guillaume I, then it appears unlikely that he would have died
> 1141/1148 if Eve was starting her childbearing around 1180.

I don't know that she was "starting" to bear children around 1180 - she may
have had them from 1170 or even earlier, just "probably around" that time as
opposed to much later, i.e. compared to ca 1215 in Roglo. Two of her sons
witnessed a charter with their father in 1190: there is nothing to indicate
how old they were at the time, or how many children she might have had
before them.

As for her presumed father's death, I have no information to hand. Eve is
likely to have been daughter of a lord of Harcourt in order to be endoed
with Lisors. Robert of Harcourt was married to her husband's sister, making
it more plausible that she was Robert's sister rather than his daughter. As
far as I know, this leaves only Guillaume for her father since she can't
very well have been an aunt or granddaughter of Robert - although possibly
his niece, I suppose.

Peter Stewart


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