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From: "Peter Stewart" <>
Subject: Re: King Henry I's bastard daughter, ?Mabel, wife of Guillaume Gouet III
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:49:09 GMT
References: <1158646507.864235.326480@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <KVPPg.31581$rP1.30399@news-server.bigpond.net.au> <1158678414.941138.208100@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <iF%Pg.32341$rP1.24893@news-server.bigpond.net.au> <1158850743.693020.234580@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>


"Douglas Richardson" <> wrote in message
news:...
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> The commemorative date, August 13th, given for Isabelle/Elizabeth de
> Blois, Duchess of Apulia, was likely her death date, or very close to
> it. Elsewhere I find that Lalore gives dates of obiit, anniversaries,
> and commemoration for both of Isabelle's parents, Thibaut IV, Count of
> Blois, Champagne, and Troyes, and his wife, Mathilde of Krnten. In
> each instance, the dates given for "obiit" and "anniversaire" match
> those labelled "mmoire."
>
> C. Lalore, Collection des Principaux Obituaries et Confraternits du
> Diocse de Troyes (Collection de Documents Indits relatif a la Ville
> de Troyes et a la Champagne Mridionale, vol. 2) (1882): 214
> (Obituaire de Saint-tienne: 10 Jan. - "Obiit Theobaldus, comes
> Campanie"), 247 (Obituaire de Saint-tienne: 13 Dec. - "Obiit
> Mathildis, comitissa"), 271(Foundations 10 Jan. "Anniversaire pour
> trs-illustre Thibault [II], comte de Champagne, dcd ce
> jour"), 283-284,291 (Foundations: 13 Dec. - "Mmoire de Mathilde
> [fille d'Englebert, marquis d'Istrie], pouse du comte Thibaut
> [II]"), 314.

It's not unlikely that the date 13 August was taken from a source that
represented this as the date of death, but even if it could be established
(and it can't) that doesn't prove the point. As I have been trying to
explain, the use of obituaries for proof - even when we possess the original
document - is just not that simple. According to Alberic of Troisfontaines,
Count Thibaut IV died on 8 January; he was commemorated on 9 January at
Chteaudun, on 10 January at Chartres and some other houses, on 11 January
at Saint-Martin des Champs. No date is given in the annals of Lagny, where
he was buried.

> Lalore also includes the "mmoire" of Isabelle de Blois' sister, Marie
> de Blois, wife of Eudes II, Duke of Burgundy. This record indicates
> that Duchess Marie was commemorated on 13 March, and further that she
> was buried at Fontrevault, where she died the 11th of that month.
>
> C. Lalore, Collection des Principaux Obituaries et Confraternits du
> Diocse de Troyes (Collection de Documents Indits relatif a la Ville
> de Troyes et a la Champagne Mridionale, vol. 2) (1882): 273
> (Foundations: 13 March - "Mmoire de Marie, fille de Thibaut [II],
> comte de Champagne, et femme d'Eudes (II), duc de Bourgogne. Elle a
> sa spulture Fontevrault, o elle est dcd le 11 de ce
> mois").
>
> Marie de Blois was Abbess of Fontevrault at the time of her death.
> Doubtless an obiit can be found for her in the records of that house.

Her obit is given elsewhere on 7 August - go figure. It is important to note
that 12th century obituaries almost never give family details or other
information apart from occasionally noting benefactions of the individual to
the house, and the record above is clearly a 17th- or 18th-century
compilation of details with the ordinals added by Lalore for further
clarity.

It's also worth noting that we can't be certain of Isabelle's first
husband's death over the range of a full year, as he died on 2 May and some
contemporary sources place this in 1148, others in 1149. The only way to
approach certainty on such points is by the synopsis of evidence, where
available, not by advocating one particular - and very much later - record
on the basis of what it says about other people compared to secondary
authorities.

Peter Stewart


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