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From: "Douglas Richardson" <>
Subject: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth le Despenser, wife of Sir Ralph de Camoys,Lord Camoys
Date: 29 Dec 2006 10:55:18 -0800


Dear Newsgroup ~

It has been noted in the past on soc.genealogy.medieval that King
Edward IV of England referred on more than one occasion to William
Hastings, Lord Hastings, and his brother, Richard Hastings, Lord
Welles, as his kinsmen [References: Calendar of Patent Rolls,
1467-1477 (1900): 460 (William Hastings styled "king's kinsman);
Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1476-1485 (1901): 152, 154 (instances of
Sir William Hastings and his brother, Richard Hastings, Lord Welles,
styled "king's kinsmen")]. To date, the nature of this kinship
has not been discovered.

In my study of royal kinsfolk, I've noted that after 1250, the English
king could and did acknowledge distant relationships, albeit invariably
within the 5th degree (or if you prefer, 4th cousins) on at least one
side. Consequently, the relationship between King Edward IV of England
and the Hastings family could be (and in this instance probably was)
quite distant. In such cases, the connection to the king is usually
found by tracing the highest born side of an individual's ancestry.

In the case of William Hastings and his brother, Richard, the highest
born ancestry they possess is through their mother, Alice Camoys, wife
of Sir Leonard Hastings. Although Alice has sometimes been claimed to
be a daughter of Sir Thomas Camoys (died 1421), Lord Camoys, by his 2nd
wife, Elizabeth Mortimer, it is now known that Alice was actually the
daughter of Sir Thomas Camoys, Lord Camoys, by his 1st wife, Elizabeth,
daughter and heiress of William Louches. For a discussion of Alice
Camoys' correct parentage, see Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry
(2004).

A somewhat incomplete account of the Camoys family is included in
Complete Peerage, 2 (1912): 506-510. Alice Camoys' line of descent
presented below is based on that account, with additions from my own
research:

1. Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, died 1336.
2. Sir John de Camoys, of Norfolk, younger son, living 1362, married
(2nd) ?Elizabeth ____ (doubtless a near kinswoman of William le
Latimer, K.G., 4th Lord Latimer).
3. Sir Thomas Camoys, Lord Camoys, died 1421, married (1st) Elizabeth
Louches.
4. Alice Camoys, married Sir Leonard Hastings.

For there to be a kinship between King Edward IV and the Hastings
family, it would almost have to come through one of the wives of the
Camoys family, this being the highest born family in the Hastings
ancestry. Yet, we are met with two immediate blocks in that the wives
of Thomas Camoys (died 1421) and his father, Sir John de Camoys (living
1362) seemingly have no connection whatsoever to the families in King
Edward IV's ancestry. Sir John de Camoys' wife, ?Elizabeth, was almost
certainly of baronial descent as her son, Thomas, was called "cousin"
by Sir William le Latimer, K.G., 4th Lord Latimer. The relationship
between Thomas Camoys and Lord Latimer must have been close, as Lord
Latimer bequeathed Thomas Camoys a manor in his 1381 will, and also
settled on him the reversion of various properties in Calais
[Reference: Nicolas, Testamenta Vetusta 1 (1826): 108 (will of William
Latimer)]. Yet Lord Latimer possesses nothing in his ancestry that
would yield him a near enough connection to King Edward IV of England
which justify the king referring to Sir Thomas Camoys' grandsons as his
kinsfolk.

That leaves us Sir Ralph de Camoys, Lord Camoys, died 1336, who was the
great-great-grandfather of William Hastings and his brother, Richard
Hastings. Sir Ralph de Camoys is known to have married twice. He
married (1st) in 1303 to Margaret de Brewes, daughter of William de
Brewes, Knt., of Bramber, Sussex, by his 3rd wife, Mary, daughter of
Robert de Roos, Knt. He had one son, Thomas, Knt., by this marriage.
Margaret was living in 1304-1305, when she and Roger conveyed the manor
of Little Bookham, Surrey to her mother, Mary de Brewes [Reference:
List of Inquisitions ad Quod Damnum, Part I (Lists and Indexes, No.
XVII): 83]. She was likely still living in 1307, when Ralph was
summoned "with his consort" to attend the Coronation of King Edward II.
Following Margaret's death, Sir Ralph de Camoys married (2nd) sometime
before 1319 a certain Elizabeth, by whom he had three sons, Hugh, Knt.,
John, Knt., and Ralph, and two daughters, Margaret and Isabel.
Complete Peerage states that Sir Ralph de Camoys' second wife,
Elizabeth, was "probably a daughter or sister of William de Rogate."
Yet, the three sources cited as evidence of Elizabeth's parentage do
not bear this out. In fact, there is nothing in these sources which
would suggest that Elizabeth was a Rogate at all.

The question then is: Who is Elizabeth, the second wife of Sir Ralph de
Camoys? Actually the answer to her identity has been available in
print since at least 1905. An early visitation of Sussex gives a
somewhat garbled account of the baronial Camoys family. This account
was submitted by the Lewknor family who were the lineal heirs of the
Camoys family. According to this visitation, Sir Ralph de Camoys
married "..... d. of Hugh le Spencer Erle of Winchester." [Reference:
Benolte et al., Vis. of Sussex 1530 & 1633-4 (H.S.P. 53) (1905):
29-30 (Camoys pedigree)]. As far as I can tell, this visitation
record was either overlooked or completely ignored by Complete Peerage.

As for Sir Ralph de Camoys and his wife, Elizabeth, they occur together
in many records, often with the Despenser family. In 1305 and again in
1313, Ralph received letters of protection while going beyond the seas
on the King's affairs with Hugh le Despenser the elder. Ralph was
summoned to Parliament from 26 Nov. 1313 to 1 April 1335, by writs
directed Radulpho de Camoys, whereby he is held to have become Lord
Camoys. In 1319 Sir Ralph and his wife, Elizabeth, and Hugh le
Despenser were pardoned for acquiring to them and the heirs of Ralph
the bailiwick of the forestship of Aisholt [Hampshire] and Wolmer
[Sussex] from Richard de Venuz without license. In 1320 Ralph served
as one of Hugh le Despenser's attorneys. In 1321 he and his wife,
Elizabeth, granted land in Trotton, Sussex and elsewhere to William de
Rogate for life. In 1323-1324 he and his wife, Elizabeth, settled
the manor of Cokeham (in Sumpting), Sussex on themselves for life, with
reversion to their son, Ralph. In 1324 the king granted the manor of
Westbury, Hampshire to Ralph, his wife, Elizabeth, and their son, Hugh.
In 1325-1326 Ralph and his wife, Elizabeth, settled a messuage and
lands in Woolavington, Sussex on themselves for life, with reversion to
their son, John. In 1326 he and his wife, Elizabeth, and their son,
John, were allowed the yearly fair at Rogate, Sussex. Ralph was
pardoned in Feb. 1326/7 for his adherence to the Despensers in their
rebellion against King Edward II.

As shown above, Elizabeth, wife of Sir Ralph de Camoys, appears in many
records. She and her husband made careful provision for their three
sons, Hugh, John, and Ralph. These are all good indications that
Elizabeth herself was of high rank. Moreover, the names of Elizabeth's
children, Hugh, Margaret, and Isabel are all well known Despenser
family names.

Besides the links to the Despenser family cited above, I also find that
Sir Ralph de Camoys had two other important ties to the Despensers.
First, Margaret de Goushill, daughter of Sir Ralph de Camoys' first
cousin, Sir Ralph de Goushill, was married before 1313 to Sir Philip de
Despenser, younger son of Hugh le Despenser, Earl of Winchester.
Second, in 1326 that Sir Ralph de Camoys and Isabel de Hastings
(another daughter of Earl Hugh le Despenser), purchased the marriages
of the two Foliot co-heiresses, Margery and Margaret, and married them
to their respective sons.

Reviewing the above information, I find that Sir Ralph de Camoys' wife,
Elizabeth, was of sufficient rank to be the daughter of Earl Hugh le
Despenser. Sir Ralph de Camoys' close association to the Despenser
family is more than evident. Sir Ralph de Camoys' own rank as baron
was sufficient for him to have married an Earl's daughter. Lastly,
Ralph and Elizabeth's children bear witness of Elizabeth's Despenser
parentage.

As a final piece of evidence, I find that William Hastings and his
brother, Richard Hastings, would be kin to King Edward IV of England
once in the 5th and 7th degrees of kindred (or, if you prefer, 4th
cousins twice removed), and once in the 5th degree and 8th degrees of
kindred (or, if you prefer, 4th cousins thrice removed), by virtue of
their common descent from Isabel de Beauchamp (died 1306), wife of Sir
Patrick de Chaworth and Hugh le Despenser, Earl of Winchester, as shown
below:

1. Isabel de Beauchamp, married (2nd) Hugh le Despenser, Knt., Earl of
Winchester.
2. Elizabeth le Despenser, living 1370, married before 1319 Ralph de
Camoys, Knt., Lord Camoys.
3. John de Camoys, Knt., of Norfolk, born c. 1320, living 1362, married
(2nd) ?Elizabeth ____ (doubtless a near kinswoman of William le
Latimer, K.G., 4th Lord Latimer).
4. Thomas Camoys, Knt., Lord Camoys, died 1421, married (1st) Elizabeth
Louches.
5. Alice Camoys, married Leonard Hastings, Knt., of Kirby Muxloe,
Leicestershire.
6. William Hastings, K.G., 1st Lord Hastings, Chamberlain of the
Household for King Edward IV.

1. Isabel de Beauchamp, married (1st) Patrick de Chaworth, Knt.
2. Maud de Chaworth, born 1282, living 1320, married Henry of
Lancaster, Knt., Earl of Lancaster and Leicester.
3. Eleanor of Lancaster, married (2nd) Richard de Arundel, Knt., Earl
of Arundel and Surrey.
4. Alice Arundel, married Thomas de Holand, K.G., 2nd Earl of Kent.
5. Eleanor Holand, married (1st) Roger Mortimer, Knt., 4th Earl of
March, 6th Earl of Ulster.
6. Anne Mortimer, married Richard of York, Knt., Earl of Cambridge.
7. Richard Plantagenet, Knt., K.G., 3rd Duke of York, 6th Earl of
March, 8th Earl of Ulster, married Cecily Neville.
8. King Edward IV of England, died 1483.

1. Isabel de Beauchamp, died 1306, married (1st) Patrick de Chaworth,
Knt.
2. Maud de Chaworth, born 1282, living 1320, married Henry of
Lancaster, Knt., Earl of Lancaster and Leicester.
3. Maud of Lancaster, married William de Burgh, Knt., 4th Earl of
Ulster.
4. Elizabeth de Burgh, married Lionel of Antwerp, K.G., Duke of
Clarence.
5. Philippe of Clarence, married Edmund de Mortimer, Knt., 3rd Earl of
March.
6. Roger Mortimer, Knt., 4th Earl of March, 6th Earl of Ulster, married
Eleanor Holand.
7. Anne Mortimer, married Richard of York, Knt., Earl of Cambridge.
8. Richard Plantagenet, Knt., K.G., 3rd Duke of York, 6th Earl of
March, 8th Earl of Ulster, married Cecily Neville.
9. King Edward IV of England, died 1483.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

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