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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2007-03 > 1175402823


From: "Peter Stewart" <>
Subject: Re: FITZRICHARDS
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 04:47:03 GMT
References: <mailman.558.1174686536.3661.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com><b_ZMh.979$M.590@news-server.bigpond.net.au><eu3c3i$osq$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu><bnjNh.1334$M.219@news-server.bigpond.net.au><mailman.632.1174843199.3661.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com><bGCNh.1676$M.1142@news-server.bigpond.net.au><S5GPh.2692$%G4.1016@trndny05>


"Don Stone" <> wrote in message
news:S5GPh.2692$%...
> Peter Stewart wrote in two posts on 3/25/2007:
>> "Robert Forrest" <> wrote:
>>> Paul Davis, in a September 2001 post to SGM,cited Vivian's Vis. of Devon
>>> which derived the origin of the Giffards from this same family. Davis
>>> said Vivian's pedigree shows another son for Geoffrey of Brionne (who he
>>> says d. c1000):
>>>
>>> "This Geoffrey had a son Gilbert of Brione, lord of Bec, count
>>> d'Eu, and captain of Tellieres, ob. 1034.
>>
>> Two different men are conflated here: Duke Richard I's illegitimate son
>> Godfrey/Geoffrey had two sons, Gilbert and Robert. Gilbert was count of
>> Brionne, and was murdered soon after taking the place of Alan III of
>> Brittany as a guardian of the young Duke William (later the Conqueror).
>> This followed the murder of Alan on 1 October 1040, so the date 1034 is
>> clearly wrong as is the identification with Tillires (see below). Robert
>> had a daughter, name unknown, who married Baudry the German. The wives of
>> both Gilbert and Robert are unknown.
>>
>>> "This Gilbert, and Gunora, daughter of Fulk Alan, had four sons,
>>> including Richard FitzGilbert, earl of Brione and Clare, and
>>> Gilbert, lord of Tellieres.
>>
>> Wrong - Gilbert Crespin, castellan of Tillires, was a younger
>> contemporary but not the same as Gilbert fitz Godfrey, count of Brionne.
>> Gilbert Crespin married Gunnora who was a sister of Foulques of Aunou as
>> daughter of Baudry the German and the daughter of Robert above,
>> consequently this Gunnora was a great-niece of Gilbert fitz Godfrey of
>> Brionne.
>
> Peter,
>
> If I am reading this correctly, you are saying that the Clares descended
> from Richard fitz Gilbert (among whom were various earls of Gloucester and
> Hertford) do not have a male-line descent from Duke Richard I.
>
> However, on 3/23/2007, Wanda Thacker said:
>> The Royal and Noble database at Hull says it goes
>> this way:
>>
>> RICHARD I THE FEARLESS
>> GODFREY OF BRIONNE AND EU
>> GILBERT CRISPIN OF BRIONNE
>> RICHARD FITZGILBERT DECLARE MARRIED ROHESE GIFFORD
>>
>> SEVERAL OTHER SOURCES GIVE IT THIS WAY
>> RICHARD I
>> RICHARD II
>> GODFREY
>> GILBERT
>> RICHARD FITZGILBERT MARRIED ROHESE
>
> and you responded:
>> Your "several other sources" are wrong and in this instance the Hull
>> database is right.
>
> Similarly, on 3/24/2007, you said:
>> Godfrey of Brionne's son Count Gilbert had two sons: Richard fitz Gilbert
>> whose descendants were the Clare family (later earls of Gloucester and
>> Hertford), and Baldwin fitz Gilbert whose son Richard was sheriff of
>> Devon.
>
> This is in agreement with _The Aristocracy of Norman England_ by Judith A.
> Green (1997), which states (p. 343) that Richard fitz Gilbert and Baldwin
> the sheriff were both sons of Count Gilbert of Brionne.
>
> So, does the traditional pedigree as given at Hull (and in Leo's
> Genealogics) conflate two different Gilberts or not? Thanks for any
> insight you can supply.
>
> [The reason for my interest is that a fellow whose Y-chromosome DNA
> closely matches mine is trying to make the case that he and I and various
> other close matches are all of Norman descent patrilineally and, more
> specifically, are descendants of Duke Richard I. (I have told him I am
> quite skeptical of this and think that Stone is more likely Anglo-Saxon.)
> His proposed pedigree follows the traditional route, Richard I,
> Godfrey/Geoffrey of Brionne, Gilbert of Brionne (d. 1040), and then
> continues through the latter's son Baldwin "the Sheriff."]

I think this thread has become more than muddled enough already, and from
Don's first question I must be reading my own comments differently from
others, so that it may be better to start again without interspersing
comments.

My intention was to separate two different Gilberts, shown below in capitals
within their respective male lineages:

First, stemming from the Norman ducal family -
1. Richard I, duke of Normandy (by unknown concubine)
|
2. Godfrey, count of Eu & Brionne
|
3(a). GILBERT, count of Brionne
3(b). Robert, probably father of a daughter, recorded as GILBERT's niece,
who married Baudry the German
|
sons of Gilbert #3(a):
4(a). Richard fitz Gilbert, lord of Clare, agnatic ancestor of the earls of
Hertford from his marriage to Rohese Giffard
4(b). Baldwin fitz Gilbert, lord of Okehampton & sheriff of Devon, whose
male descent ended with his sons including two other sheriffs of Devon.

Second, agnatically unrelated to the first as far as we know -
1. GILBERT I Crispin, castellan of Tillires, parentage unknown, married
Gunnora (daughter of Baudry the German by the niece of GILBERT of Brionne
above)
|
2(a). Gilbert II, castellan of Tillires, left agnatic descendants down to
Gilbert VI of Tillires whose inheritance passed through daughters to other
families
2(b). William I, seigneur of Le Bec & viscount of the Vexin, also left
agnatic descendants
2(c). Robert ,who was poisoned in Constantinople, apparently unmarried
and possibly
2(d). Milo, who fought at Hastings, with no recorded offspring.

The original post had conflated Gilbert #3(a) from the first line with
Gilbert #1 from the second (as well as confusing the sheriffs of Devon in
the Clare line above with the earls of Devon in the Redvers family).

The only known link between these two Gilberts, one a count of Brionne and
the other a castellan of Tillires, was the latter's wife, daughter of
Baudry the German (who was father also of Foulques of Aunou and Nicholas of
Bacqueville).

Peter Stewart



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