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From: Brad Verity <>
Subject: Re: Descents From Edward III For Dr. William Brigham,Discoverer of Whittle Springs 1845
Date: 8 May 2007 12:50:16 -0700
References: <1177287827.427413.116610@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com><1178571605.738365.302350@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com><mailman.1884.1178596828.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1884.1178596828.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>


Dear John,

Comments interspersed.

On May 7, 8:58 pm, "John Higgins" <> wrote:

> This is another interesting and useful descent. I believe I can provide an
> 11th Joan Beaufort descent for Dr.WilliamBrigham, and I have a couple of
> questions on the Lumley connection.

Many thanks for the reminder of the Greystoke/Thornton/Lumley descent
- another one I had completely overlooked.

> Elizabeth Ferrers, Lady Greystoke, also had a daughter Elizabeth who mar.
> Roger Thornton of Newcastle. This couple had a daughter Elizabeth who mar.
> George, Lord Lumley [see CP 8:273-4]. Their son Thomas was the one who is
> said to have mar. Elizabeth, the illegitimate dau. of Edward IV.

I'll revise the lines of descent with this addition, and post it
separately. This adds an additional Joan Beaufort descent for Bridget
Belasyse of Brancepeth as well.

> The statement that the wife of Roger Lumley of Ludworth was Isabel Ratcliffe
> is interesting. Leo's Genealogics database gives this wife for Roger, but
> neither of the sources he cites for Roger (Paget and Burke's Extinct
> Peerages) give Roger a wife, and no source is given for Isabel.

I'll have to double-check my Ratcliffe file when I get home, but I
think the source for her marriage to Roger Lumley is either the Sir
Richard Ratcliffe bio in the new Oxford DNB, or the Henry VII
Relations pedigrees of about 1500-1505.

> In addition
> Leo gives a wife Isabelle [sic] Ratcliffe to Roger's uncle, another Roger,
> citing in this case Cahiers de St. Louis.

Cahiers must have confused the two uncle-nephew Roger Lumleys, as
Edith Milner did in her 1904 book 'Records of the Lumleys of Lumley
Castle'. Isabel Ratcliffe would have been born at some point in the
1477-1485 range, and would not have been a mother until the 1500s - a
chronology which works much better for the younger Roger Lumley.

Isabel Ratcliffe's elder half-brother Henry Boynton had married a
Lumley heiress, and he likely helped arrange Isabel's marriage to a
Lumley.

> But a detailed Lumley pedigree in
> Surtees' Durham, 2:163, gives no wives for either of the Rogers. Is there a
> good source for this Isabel?

See above.

> Also, pedigrees for both the Lumley and Trollope families indicate that the
> Lumley daughter who mar. Thomas Trollope was Margaret, not Anne (who mar.
> John Lambton).

I took the name 'Anne' from VCH Durham Vol. 3:

This Robert Hayton had a son William who married a certain Alice,
probably of the family of Lumley of Ludworth. (fn. 102) On this
marriage the quarter of Seaton Carew was settled. William Hayton
apparently died childless, and the manor was reconveyed to trustees to
hold for Alice during her life, with reversion to Roger Lumley of
Ludworth. Alice married as her second husband Roger Booth, and after
her death in 1548 it was found that the reversion of the quarter of
Seaton Carew had been settled by Roger Lumley on the marriage of his
daughter Anne with Thomas Trollope of Thornley (fn. 103) (q.v.). It
was inherited by Thomas's son John Trollope, who in 1563 sold it to
Bertram Anderson. (fn. 104)

Thomas Trollope's will is printed in 'Durham Wills' Vol. I, and his
son John Trollope's will is printed in 'Durham Wills' Vol. II (both on
my list to copy at my next Library visit), and the editors identify
Thomas's first wife as Anne, daughter of Roger Lumley, in both
instances. John Lambton's wife was Agnes Lumley, no doubt named for
her maternal grandmother Agnes Scrope.

Cheers, ---------Brad

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