GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives
Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2007-05 > 1178666515
From: "John Higgins" <>
Subject: Re: Descents From Edward III For Dr. William Brigham,Discoverer of Whittle Springs 1845
Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 16:21:55 -0700
References: <1177287827.427413.116610@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com><1178571605.738365.302350@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com><mailman.1884.1178596828.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com><1178653816.422835.174980@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
With respect to Isabel Ratcliffe, the wife of Roger Lumley of Ludworth,
although the Lumley pedigree in Surtees' Durham 2:163 does not give Roger a
wife, a Radclyffe pedigree in Surtees' Durham 1:32 does show Isabel as the
wife of this Roger (and specifically the younger Roger, not his uncle
Roger). Isabel is shown here as the daughter of Sir Richard Radclyffe
[sic], who d. at Bosworth, and his wife Agnes Scrope, dau. of Henry, Lord
Scrope of Bolton. This Sir Richard Ratcliffe or Radclyffe (of the
Derwentwater branch of the family) is of course the one immortalized in the
ditty about the reign of Richard III: " The cat, the rat, and Lovell our dog
ruled all England under a hog".
With respect to the daughters of Roger Lumley of Ludworth, you are of course
correct that it was Agnes [not Anne] who mar. John Lambton - at some point
in the past I read Agnes but typed in Anne. And the Trollope wills you cite
clearly indicate that the daughter who mar. Thomas Trollope was Anne,
although the pedigrees of both families call her Margaret.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Verity" <>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: Descents From Edward III For Dr. William Brigham,Discoverer of
Whittle Springs 1845
> Dear John,
>
> Comments interspersed.
>
> On May 7, 8:58 pm, "John Higgins" <> wrote:
>
> > This is another interesting and useful descent. I believe I can provide
an
> > 11th Joan Beaufort descent for Dr.WilliamBrigham, and I have a couple of
> > questions on the Lumley connection.
>
> Many thanks for the reminder of the Greystoke/Thornton/Lumley descent
> - another one I had completely overlooked.
>
> > Elizabeth Ferrers, Lady Greystoke, also had a daughter Elizabeth who
mar.
> > Roger Thornton of Newcastle. This couple had a daughter Elizabeth who
mar.
> > George, Lord Lumley [see CP 8:273-4]. Their son Thomas was the one who
is
> > said to have mar. Elizabeth, the illegitimate dau. of Edward IV.
>
> I'll revise the lines of descent with this addition, and post it
> separately. This adds an additional Joan Beaufort descent for Bridget
> Belasyse of Brancepeth as well.
>
> > The statement that the wife of Roger Lumley of Ludworth was Isabel
Ratcliffe
> > is interesting. Leo's Genealogics database gives this wife for Roger,
but
> > neither of the sources he cites for Roger (Paget and Burke's Extinct
> > Peerages) give Roger a wife, and no source is given for Isabel.
>
> I'll have to double-check my Ratcliffe file when I get home, but I
> think the source for her marriage to Roger Lumley is either the Sir
> Richard Ratcliffe bio in the new Oxford DNB, or the Henry VII
> Relations pedigrees of about 1500-1505.
>
> > In addition
> > Leo gives a wife Isabelle [sic] Ratcliffe to Roger's uncle, another
Roger,
> > citing in this case Cahiers de St. Louis.
>
> Cahiers must have confused the two uncle-nephew Roger Lumleys, as
> Edith Milner did in her 1904 book 'Records of the Lumleys of Lumley
> Castle'. Isabel Ratcliffe would have been born at some point in the
> 1477-1485 range, and would not have been a mother until the 1500s - a
> chronology which works much better for the younger Roger Lumley.
>
> Isabel Ratcliffe's elder half-brother Henry Boynton had married a
> Lumley heiress, and he likely helped arrange Isabel's marriage to a
> Lumley.
>
> > But a detailed Lumley pedigree in
> > Surtees' Durham, 2:163, gives no wives for either of the Rogers. Is
there a
> > good source for this Isabel?
>
> See above.
>
> > Also, pedigrees for both the Lumley and Trollope families indicate that
the
> > Lumley daughter who mar. Thomas Trollope was Margaret, not Anne (who
mar.
> > John Lambton).
>
> I took the name 'Anne' from VCH Durham Vol. 3:
>
> This Robert Hayton had a son William who married a certain Alice,
> probably of the family of Lumley of Ludworth. (fn. 102) On this
> marriage the quarter of Seaton Carew was settled. William Hayton
> apparently died childless, and the manor was reconveyed to trustees to
> hold for Alice during her life, with reversion to Roger Lumley of
> Ludworth. Alice married as her second husband Roger Booth, and after
> her death in 1548 it was found that the reversion of the quarter of
> Seaton Carew had been settled by Roger Lumley on the marriage of his
> daughter Anne with Thomas Trollope of Thornley (fn. 103) (q.v.). It
> was inherited by Thomas's son John Trollope, who in 1563 sold it to
> Bertram Anderson. (fn. 104)
>
> Thomas Trollope's will is printed in 'Durham Wills' Vol. I, and his
> son John Trollope's will is printed in 'Durham Wills' Vol. II (both on
> my list to copy at my next Library visit), and the editors identify
> Thomas's first wife as Anne, daughter of Roger Lumley, in both
> instances. John Lambton's wife was Agnes Lumley, no doubt named for
> her maternal grandmother Agnes Scrope.
>
> Cheers, ---------Brad
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
This thread: