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From: Douglas Richardson <>
Subject: Another C.P. Addition: Ida Longespée, wife of Walter Fitz Robert
Date: 23 May 2007 08:04:33 -0700


Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 472 (sub FitzWalter) identified Ida, wife
of Walter Fitz Robert, as "daughter of William (Longespée), Earl of
Salisbury." Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 381-382 footnote k (sub
Salisbury) confuses Walter Fitz Robert's wife Ida with her sister of
the same name who married William de Beauchamp; it also misidentifies
Walter Fitz Robert's parentage.

The identification of Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, has
traditionally rested on a pedigree of the Longespée family found in
Lacock Priory cartulary. This pedigree lists the various children of
William Longespée I, Earl of Salisbury, and his wife, Ela of
Salisbury, including:

"Idam de Camyle, quam duxit in uxorem Walterus fil. Roberti, de qua
genuit Catherinam et Loricam, quæ velatæ erant apud Lacok; Elam, quam
duxit primo Guillelmus de Dodingeseles, de qua genuit Robertum")
[Reference: Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, 6(1) (1830): 501].

It is not known exactly why Ida Longespée is styled Ida de Camyle in
this record. I've assumed, however, that Ida may have had a brief
Camville marriage previous to her known marriage to Walter Fitz
Robert. If so, a previous Camvillle marriage would explain her use of
the Camville surname as a grown adult. Ida's older brother, William
Longespée II, is known, for example, to have married a member of the
Camville family.

Be that as it may, I recently came across new evidence which proves
that Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, was in fact a Longespée. The
book, List of Ancient Correspondence of the Chancery and Exchequer,
contains an abstract of a letter dated 1261-1263 from Ida, widow of
Walter Fitz Robert, written to Walter de Merton, the king's
chancellor, in which Ida specifically styles herself Ida Longespée:

"152. Ida Longespée, widow of Walter Fitz Robert, to the same [Walter
de Merton, Chancellor]: to bail two of her men appealed of homicide.
[1261-1263]." [Reference: List of Ancient Corr. of the Chancery and
Exchequer (PRO Lists and Indexes 15) (1902): 107-108].

The above record was somehow overlooked by Complete Peerage in its
account of the Fitz Walter family.

For interest's sake, I've copied below two of my earlier posts in
which I discuss the evidence that Ida Longespée, wife of Walter Fitz
Robert, was a full sister to the second Ida Longespée, wife of William
de Beauchamp.

As always, comments are welcome.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

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MESSAGE #1:

Message from discussion Two Ida Longespee's: Same Generation

From: (Douglas Richardson)
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Subject: Two Ida Longespee's: Same Generation
Date: 9 Sep 2002 02:03:43 -0700

Dear Newsgroup ~

A while back, I posted evidence which indicates that William Longespee
(bastard son of King Henry II) had two daughters named Ida, one who
married William de Beauchamp, Baron of Bedford, co. Bedford, the other
who married Walter Fitz Robert, Baron of Little Dunmow, Essex. The
evidence for the first Ida consists of a fine recorded in Essex in
which William Longespee is specifically called that Ida's father.
The evidence for the second Ida involves chronology and the pedigree
of the Longespee family recorded in the records of Lacock Abbey, which
abbey was founded by Earl William's widow, Ela.

In a post today, I stated that the chronology of the family of the
second Ida'a son-in-law, Sir William de Oddingseles, suggests that he
was born say 1230/5. This birthdate for Sir William is entirely
consistent with his wife, Ela, being a granddaughter of Earl William
Longespee.

Tonight I located another piece of evidence which similarly places
Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, in the generation of William
Longespee's children. According to the Patent Rolls, I learned that
following her husband, Walter Fitz Robert's death in 1258, his "men,
lands and goods" were committed to William de Aette, which William was
also one of the executors for the will of Ida's brother, Sir Stephen
Longespee, who died in 1260 [References: Calendar of Patent Rolls,
1258-1262 (1910), pg. 209; Cal. of Close Rolls, 1259-1261 (1934), pg.
79].

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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MESSAGE #2:

Message from discussion Two Ida Longespee's: Same Generation

From: (Douglas Richardson)
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Subject: Re: Two Ida Longespee's: Same Generation
Date: 14 Sep 2002 22:52:37 -0700

Dear Adrian, John, etc. ~

One way to examine the plausibility of the two Ida Longespee's being
sisters is to check the history of their descendants to see if the
chronology of their descendants is similar or dissimilar. If the two
women were sisters, one would expect the dates of their descendants to
be in sync with each other.

I took the time to check the chronology of the descendants of this two
Ida's this past week. For purposes of simplicity, I will call the
elder Ida (wife of William de Beauchamp) Ida I, and the younger Ida
(wife of Walter Fitz Robert) Ida II.

What I discovered was basically that the descendants of the two women
were basically in sync with one another. Ida I had three known
daughters, Maud, Beatrice, and Ela. Tracing the descendants of the
three daughters out to their grandchildren, we find Maud's grandson
and heir, John Mowbray, was born in 1286. Beatrice's grandson, Thomas
Botetourt, was born say 1290. Ela's eldest grandchild was Isabel (or
Elizabeth) Stonegrave, born 1271/3.

As for Ida II, she had two known children who left descendants, Ela
and Robert. Ela's daughter Ida de Oddingseles had her eldest child,
Ela de Herdeburgh, born say 1284/1286. Ela's younger daughter,
Margaret, had her eldest son and heir, John de Grey, born in 1300.
Robert Fitz Walter had his eldest surviving grandchild, Hawise
Marshal, born say 1300.

Comparing the descendants of the two women, my guess is that the
descendants of the younger Ida (Ida II) are running perhaps ten years
after the descendants of the elder Ida (Ida I). This would certainly
be pretty much what we would expect if the two women were sisters.

Interestingly, I find the chronology of the descendants of the two
Ida's dovetails nicely with the chronology of the descendants of their
brother, Stephen Longespee. Stephen had one daughter, Ela, who left
issue. Ela's two granddaughters and co-heiresses were Ellen and Maud
la Zouche, who were born in 1288 and 1290 respectively.

In sharp contrast, however, the chronology of the descendants of the
one known niece of the two Ida's and Stephen, namely Ela de Audley, is
running a full generation after the descendants of the two Ida's and
Stephen. Ela de Audley has two known grandchildren (not great-
grandchildren) born about 1289. Again, this is what one would expect
when comparing the chronology of the descendants of a niece against
those of her aunts and uncle.

I must point out the when examining "out" generations that you are
dealing with averages. Averages can and should only be taken as
indicators. Having said that, it appears in this case the averages
"indicate" the two Ida's were full sisters.

The 85 year rule of thumb for 3 generations can also be used to
suggest an approximate birthdate of the two Ida's. If we add the
three birthdates of Ida I's three great-children, divide by three, and
subtract 85, we have an indicated birth for Ida I of 1198. If we add
the three birthdates of Ida II's three great-grandchildren, divide by
three, and subtract 85, we have an indicated birth for Ida No. 2 of
1210. Or, in other words, we have approximately 12 years separating
the two Ida's based on the chronology of their descendants.

I usually use 28 years for a generation in the medieval period. In
this case, 12 years is less than half a generation's difference. For
this reason, I conclude the two Ida's were probably full sisters to
one another.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


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