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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2007-12 > 1197012222


From: "Willem Nabuurs" <>
Subject: RE: Clovis to Christopher Branch?
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 08:23:42 +0100
References: <cc18a23f-d8b8-43e9-8944-b46f1e00480c@j44g2000hsj.googlegroups.com><nltaylor-11C1FC.17133402122007@earthlink.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net><2f80398b-34c8-40a0-b1ea-c62a7deaf17a@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com><ddb95ccf-d3e6-48a1-a00f-c9b00d4d89b7@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com><nltaylor-A1197A.22054306122007@earthlink.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net><a938ad7b-2b6a-4138-9cc8-56ea46c896d8@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <a938ad7b-2b6a-4138-9cc8-56ea46c896d8@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>


I have seen the following lines (all of which can be marked
suspicious/unlikely in my eyes):

Eckhardt, in his Studia Merovingica (1975):
- Charles Martel's wife Rotrud as a daughter of Chlothar IV
- Pippin the Younger's wife Bertrada as a great-granddaughter of Childeric
II
- Pippin the Elder's wife Ita as a Merovingian (her father Grimoald having a
line to Clovis via Theodebald, Theodebert I and Theoderic I)

Hlawitschka has published an article in Rheinische Vierteljahrsblatter
(1979) which has counter arguments for all the 3 lines presented by
Eckhardt.

Gewin, in Die Verwandtschaften und politische Beziehungen zwischen den
Westeuropaischen Furstenhausern im Fruhmittelalter (1964):
- Charles Martel as a son of Pippin I and a daughter of Childeric II

Furthermore he has Gundeberga, the wife of Grimoald and grandmother of
Pippin II via her daughter Begga, as a daughter of the Longobardian king
Agilolf and the Theodelinde. He has her as the daugher of Theodebald, son of
Theodebert I, son of Theoderic I. But he has Theoderic I not as a son of
Clovis (as usually shown) but as a son of the Ostrogoth king Theoderic the
Great (so this is actually not a Merovingian but an Ostrogoth descent)

Grote in his Stammtafeln (1877):
- Arnulf as a son of Arnold, him being a son of Ansbert and the Merovingian
princess Blithilde, daughter of Chlothar II

Willem Nabuurs

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van:
[mailto:] Namens
Verzonden: vrijdag 7 december 2007 5:25
Aan:
Onderwerp: Re: Clovis to Christopher Branch?

On Dec 6, 7:05 pm, Nathaniel Taylor <> wrote:
> In article
> <>,
>
>
>
> wrote:
> > On Dec 2, 2:28 pm, "" <> wrote:
>
> > > So far as I know, all descents from the Merovingians lack clear proof,
> > > including the very possible descent of Charlemagne's mother. This has
> > > been a matter of dispute for many years.
>
> > Just out of curiosity, what other claimed descents are you aware of?
> > The obvious two are through Bertrada and her kindred (which is
> > speculated to include William of Gellone) and the old line through
> > Arnulf (recently modified to go through the wife of Pepin). I know
> > there are some Iberian ones linking through Pedro of Cantabria to the
> > Visigoths and thence to the Merovingians, and through Egbert's
> > supposed Kent connection (and of course the Priory of Sion crap). Has
> > anyone seen any other claims? (As gryphon indicates, all speculative/
> > unsupported, but I am curious what has been suggested.) Isn't there a
> > Gascon line that supposedly traces to the Merovingians, or am I
> > misremembering it?
>
> How many descents does Turton have from genuine Merovingians? That
> would give a state-of-the-speculation snapshot as of 1928.

He shows several links with the supposed pre-Pedro Visigoths, and
traces the poorly documented early Gascon counts (e.g. Lupe Centule)
in the male line. The other two he traces go through the first wife of
Louis the Pious to a daughter of Charles Martel by Swanhilde of
Bavaria, who he then traces through the dukes for several generations
to a Merovingian marriage. The last is an Ethiconid descent with the
first Ethico marrying a Merovingian.

taf

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