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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2008-01 > 1199318195


From: CE Wood <>
Subject: Re: Joan de Clinton, widow of John de Montfort, John de Clinton, and Henry ap Griffith
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:56:35 -0800 (PST)
References: <871ff485-6f06-4a87-b5c7-478a36e9312f@l6g2000prm.googlegroups.com><c0771d7a-575e-496e-be2f-ee7bbcb1b79e@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com> <d6dd0060-5b20-490c-a1dc-25d13c663051@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com> <a8f2e673-c837-46a2-bb88-1307c586fae6@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com>


I am confused by the conflicting date of proof of age information
given on the page in your link:

> Please see the following weblink for the record of John de Sutton's
> alienation of Malpas, Cheshire:

> http://books.google.com/books?id=yf8qAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA148&dq=%22Will...

"(he) was twenty-one years of age...6th December, 1382...."
"(he) was aged one and a half years...24th June, 1362...."
"John was born...in the 34th year of Edward III., 1360...."

There are two statements that say John was born in 1360, when
Katherine de Stafford was still alive. The first statement is also
true inasmuch as he was twenty-one years of age in 1382, whether he
was born in 1360 or 1361.

So, if these testimonies say he was born in 1360, his mother would
have been Katherine, who died in December 1361. I am confused.

CE Wood


On Jan 2, 9:30 am, Douglas Richardson <> wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> As for further evidence that John de Sutton the elder (died 1389/70)
> had no issue by his first wife, Katherine de Stafford (died 1361), I
> should point out that he and his wife, Katherine, had the manors of
> Malpas and Shocklach, Cheshire settled on them in June 1361.
> Katherine de Stafford died soon afterwards before Christmas 1361. I
> next find that John de Sutton was subsequently pardoned in 1367 for
> alienating three parts of the manor of Malpas, Cheshire [Reference:
> Annual Report of the Deputy Keeper, 36 (1875): 321].
>
> Had John de Sutton's marriage to Katherine de Stafford produced
> surviving issue, the alienation in 1367 would be most irregular, as
> the manor of Malpas was surely settled on him and Katherine, and
> presumably on their issue. If, however, John de Sutton had no issue
> by Katherine de Stafford, there would be nothing irregular about his
> alienating this property.
>
> Please see the following weblink for the record of John de Sutton's
> alienation of Malpas, Cheshire:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=yf8qAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA148&dq=%22Will...
>
> John de Sutton must have retained a moeity share of the 4th part of
> the manor of Malpas, Cheshire, as I find that in 1370 his widow, Joan
> de Clinton, and her 3rd husband, Sir Henry ap Griffith, sued Thomas de
> Budenhale, parson of Routhesthorn, for dower in a moiety of a fourth
> part of the manor of Malpas, Cheshire [see Grazebrook Barons of Dudley
> 1 (Colls. Hist. Staffs. 9(2)) (1888): 53]. Again, it would be quite
> odd for John de Sutton's second wife, Joan, to claim dower in property
> that had been previously settled on John and his 1st wife, Katherine
> de Stafford, unless the first wife, Katherine, had died without issue.
>
> This record may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=Am44AAAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA59&dq=%22moiet...
>
> As for the other moiety share of Malpas, Cheshire not held by the
> Sutton family, I find that in 1396 William son of William de Brereton
> obtained a writ of livery as heir of Isabel, wife of John de Delves.
> The record indicates that Isabel de Delves, Thomas de Budenhale, and
> Henry de Coton, chaplains formerly held a fourth part of the manor of
> Malpas, Cheshire, which property presumably passed to William de
> Brereton in 1396 [Reference: Annual Report of the Deputy Keeper, 36
> (1875): 53].
>
> This record may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=yf8qAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA53&dq=%22Thoma...
>
> Comments are welcome, indeed invited. When replying, please cite your
> sources and provide weblinks if you have them. Otherwise ..... you
> know the drill.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


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