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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2008-01 > 1201038166


From: "Peter Stewart" <>
Subject: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241),Wife of Emperor Frederick II
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:42:46 GMT
References: <mailman.2351.1200882265.4586.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com><35bd6501-2a3c-4677-b67a-7b9c2735371d@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com><5vVkj.14$d85.84@eagle.america.net><9f285055-6952-450e-92ff-5972c1ca9949@d21g2000prg.googlegroups.com><ca92f78a-1170-4b1d-a8a8-f395d17361f4@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com><4863ded6-9c06-4540-8dd9-99fcc3b40235@c23g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>


[Crosspostings removed, again.]

"Douglas Richardson" <> wrote in message
news:...
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Another issue related to Emperor Frederick II is whether or not he had
> three or four wives.
>
> Two poorly documented online sources (Wikipedia and Medieval Lands)
> get confused about this,

And so plainly does the sage of SLC. What motivates this self-proclaimed
"professional" even to bother consulting "poorly documented online sources",
when there is a huge printed literature on the subject at hand, must remain
a matter of opinion. But that this futile and stupid practice does not rise
to the level of sane method that can reasonably be called a "survey" of the
"existing historical and genealogical literature" is not a matter of opinion
at all.

> saying that Emperor Frederick II had a
> mistress named "Bianca Lancia," who was "the daughter of Manfred II
> Lancia, Marquess of Busca and Bianca 'Maletta', daughter of one
> Guglielmo, whose family surname is unknown."

Her parentage has not been definitively settled. That is not news to
medieval historians. You clearly have a vast distance to cover before you
catch up with what a European schoolchild might know about these matters.

> Regarding the issue of whether or not Frederick actually married
> Bianca,

He did. The issue is over whether or not this was a canonical marriage, and
the Church that decides such questions did not consider it to be so.

> Wikipedia waffles on this issue,

And is not alone in that....

> saying she was his "mistress and (according to some historians) wife
> of emperor Frederick II of Hohenstaufen." Emperor
> Frederick II had at least two children by Bianca (otherwise called
> Blanche),

Not "otherwise" - these are versions of the same name. What do you think
Bianca and Blanche mean?

> namely Manfred, King of Sicily, and Anna, wife of Johannes,
> Doukas Batatzes, Emperor of Nikaia.
>
> In 2003 the historian, Paul Crawford, published a text which states
> that Emperor Frederick II in fact married the said Blanche, and that
> their son, Manfred, though conceived in adultery, was thereby
> legitimized.

Manfred was 12 years old when the contentious wedding took place. It is not
actually known whether his mother was alive at the time - either way, she
was certainly on her deathbed at the time.

<snip>

> Clearly Emperor Frederick II considered his marriage to Blanche valid,
> otherwise he would never have addressed Manfred [III], Marquis of
> Lancia, as his "affinis."

Equally clearly the question was not decided by Frederick, or Manfred would
not have died in battle defending his right to the kingdom his father
bequeathed to him.

> Also, if this Manfred [III] was the Emperor's brother-in-law,
> as claimed by Medieval Lands, he would likely would have been
> addressed as "frater" [i.e., brother-in-law] not "affinis."

So start researching what the relationships might actually have been,
instead of wasting time on such "poorly documented online sources".

> As for Blanche's daughter, Anna, I believe she is the Emperor's
> daughter that was contracted to marry to Hermann, Landgrave
> of Thringia, in 1238, and subsequently repudiated by him c.1239.

Her name was Constance at this time, not Anna that came with her subsequent
Byzantine marriage, and she was a child of only ca 7 years in 1238.

> In any case, it is highly unlikely that Hermann, who was an adult in
> 1237, was contracted to marry the Emperor's infant daughter by Isabel
> of England born in February 1237 as claimed by Medieval Lands. It
> would be highly unusual for a grown man to be contracted to marry an
> infant, even the Emperor's daughter.

So it's plausible that Hermann was betrothed to a ca seven-year old bastard
child but not to a legitimate one-year-old? And then it's plausible that
Ioannes Doukas Batatzes, emperor of the East in Nicaea, would seek and
accept the cast-off of a German count?

Peter Stewart



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