Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2008-01 > 1201763575

From: Rosie Bevan <>
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_Ida_de_Tony, _mother_of_William_Longesp=E9e,_Earl_?= of Salisbury
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 23:12:55 -0800 (PST)
References: <><>

On Jan 31, 6:32 am, Douglas Richardson <> wrote:
> Dear Adrian ~
> I've copied below my current file note concerning Ida de Tony, wife of
> Roger le Bigod, Earl of Bigod, and mother of William Longespée, Earl
> of Salisbury.
> The historian, Henri Malo, is the first person who noted the
> connection between the Longespée and Bigod family. His book may be
> found at the following weblink:
> Title page:
> pg. 199:
> pg. 209:
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
> + + + + + + + + + + + +
> Note: William Longespée has long been thought to have been the
> illegitimate child of Henry II, King of England, by his mistress,
> Rosamond Clifford. New evidence has surfaced in recent years,
> however, which indicates William was actually the son of King Henry II
> by another mistress, a certain Ida, afterwards wife of Roger le Bigod
> (died 1221), Earl of Norfolk [see C.P. 9 (1936): 586-589 (sub
> Norfolk); Kemp, Reading Abbey Cartularies 1 (Camden 4th Ser. 31)
> (1986): 371]. For conclusive evidence that William Longespée was the
> son of Countess Ida le Bigod, see London, Cartulary of Bradenstoke
> Priory (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 35) (1979): 143, 188, which includes two
> charters in which Earl William Longespée specifically names his
> mother, Countess Ida. Furthermore, among the English prisoners
> captured at the Battle of Bouvines in 1214, there was a certain Ralph
> [le] Bigod, who a contemporary French record refers to as
> "brother" [that is, half-brother] of William Longespée, Earl of
> Salisbury [see Brial, Monumens de Règnes des Philippe Auguste et de
> Louis VIII 1 (Recueil des Historiens des Gaules et de la France 17)
> (1878): 101 (Guillelmus Armoricus: "Isti sunt Prisiones (capti in
> bello Bovinensi)...Radulphus Bigot, frater Comitis Saresburiensis"); see
> also Malo, Un grand feudataire, Renaud de Dammartin et la coalition de
> Bouvines (1898):199, 209, which author identified Ralph le Bigod as
> brother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury]. For newly published
> evidence that Countess Ida was a member of the Tony family, see
> Morris, The Bigod Earls of Norfolk in the 13th Century (2005): 2, who
> cites a royal inquest dated 1275, in which jurors affirmed that Earl
> Roger le Bigod had received the manors of Acle, Halvergate, and South
> Walsham, Norfolk from King Henry II, in marriage with his wife, Ida de
> Tony [see Rotuli Hundredorum 1 (1812): 504, 537]. Morris shows that
> Earl Roger le Bigod received these manors by writ of the king, he
> having held them for three quarters of a year at Michaelmas 1182 [see
> PR 28 Henry II, 1181-1182 (Pipe Roll Soc.) (1910):64]. This appears
> to pinpoint to marriage of Ida de Tony and Earl Roger le Bigod as
> having occurred about Christmas 1181. As for Countess Ida's
> parentage, it seems virtually certain that she was a daughter of Ralph
> V de Tony (died 1162), of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, by his wife,
> Margaret (b. c.1125, living 1185), daughter of Robert de Beaumont, 2nd
> Earl of Leicester [see C.P.7 (1929): 530, footnote e (incorrectly
> dates Ralph and Margaret's marriage as "after 1155" based on the
> misdating of a charter--correction provided by Ray Phair); C.P. 12(1)
> (1953): 764-765 (sub Tony); Power, The Norman Frontier in the Twelfth
> and Early Thirteenth Centuries (2004): 525 (Tosny pedigree)]. For
> evidence which supports Ida's placement as a child of Ralph V de Tony,
> several facts may be noted. First, Countess Ida and her husband,
> Roger le Bigod, are known to have named children, Ralph and Margaret,
> presumably in honor of Ida's parents, Ralph and Margaret de Tony [see
> Thompson, Liber Vitæ Ecclesiæ Dunelmenis (Surtees Soc. 136) (1923): fo.
> 63b, for a contemporary list of the Bigod children].


I note that you have neglected to credit me as a source for the names
of the children of Ida and Roger Bigod from the Durham Liber Vitae. It
would be nice if you extended the same scholarly courtesy you demand
of others, but I guess your hypocrisy in regard to theft of research,
and everything else shameless about you, is part and parcel of your
poverished reputation as a human being and scholar.

I posted this information to the newsgroup in July 2002 under the
thread "Liber Vitae and the family of Roger and Ida Bigod", and
followed it up in an article The Durham Liber Vitae: Some reflections
on its significance as a genealogical resource, Foundations (2005) 1
(6) pp. 414-424. The intellectual discussion and observations about
the Bigod family in the Liber Vitae are mine alone, as the listing is
not at all obvious on the folio. Not even Marc Morris had come across
this material.

(p. 419):
"Because they do not occur elsewhere, we are fortunate to have the
names of the entire family of Roger Bigod and Countess Ida listed in
the Durham Liber Vitae. Their grouping has been disguised by the
chaotic arrangement of names on the page by the cleric truncating the
lines two thirds of the way across and by the insertion of unrelated
individuals between the first and second lines in a later hand. We are

Comes Rogu's Bigot. Ida uxor ei'
Hugo Will's Rogu's Johs Radulf
Maria Margaret Ida pueri ei' "

I repeat Michael Andrews-Reading's query of yesterday, "how exactly do
you think these public displays of serious deficiencies will enhance
your reputation or assist you professionally?

Rosie Bevan

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