Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2008-04 > 1208187889

Subject: Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage Date of Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester, and Jacobe/Jaque of Hainault
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:44:49 -0700 (PDT)
References: <>

Jacqueline belonged to the Straubing branch of the house of Bavaria,
which appeared after the division of the house by the sons of Emperor
Louis IV and his wife Margaret of Hainault-Holland in 1349-1353.
William and Albert inherited their mother's possessions (Hainault and
Holland) and a portion of the Lower Bavaria (with the centre in
Straubing). Jacqueline's father, William, ruled in Hainault, Holland,
and Bavaria- Straubing. After his death in 1417, his brother John
succeeded in the duchy of Bavaria-Straubing, Jacqueline became
countess of Hainault and Holland. In Bavaria, there was the male only
succession, Hainault and Holland could pass to women.
In Germany, all children of a duke of X were called "dukes and duchess
of X." In France, Lorraine and the Low Countries only a successor of
the duke X would be called "duke of X", other children might add "of
X" to their name without "duke". For example, the elder son of Duke
Rene II of Lorraine was known as "Antoine, duc de Lorraine," the
second one was known as "Claude de Loraine, duc de Guise".

In the case of the Straubing branch of the house of Bavaria, there was
a mixture of those two traditions. In the Lower Countries Jacqueline
was expected to be "Jacqueline of Bavaria," in Germany, as a member of
the ruling house of Bavaria, it was natural to call her "Jacqueline,
Countess Palatine of the Rhine, Duchess of Bavaria."

BTW, the counties of Hainault and Holland like the duchy of Bavaria
were immediate to the Empire (reichsunmittelbar). Thus, their rulers
and their children had this status.

M.Sjostrom wrote:
> Jacqueline of Hainaut and Holland held personally,
> from her birth, also the title of Duchess, because of
> being a Wittelsbach in male line, to whose early
> ancestor(s) the HR Emperor had granted the ducal title
> of Bavaria.
> Jacqueline, or her father, apparently did not hold any
> part of lands of Duchy of Bavaria - her branch had
> seemingly dealt with inheritances in a way that they
> received their landed share in Low Countries and not
> in Upper Germany, Bavarian parts passing thus to other
> agnates.
> Still, the ducal honorofic belonged to her as a
> birthright - like it today belongs to other agnatic
> ladies, such as the princess-consort of the hereditary
> prince of Liechtenstein, and like it once belonged to
> the late Sisi, empress-consort of Austria.
> That Jacqueline was personally a duchess (of Bavaria),
> did not make her 'reichsunmittelbar' holdings, such as
> Hainaut and Holland, as duchies. Still, I can see that
> was probably why careless people of the time called
> them her "duchies" or so. Careless people do all sorts
> of things. They even say that Diana Spencer was
> 'princess Diana'. And careless people write books
> (which then get corrected lots of times in painful
> details), such as American gateway ancestor lineage
> books.
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
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