GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2008-04 > 1208220270
From: "TJ Booth" <>
Subject: Edward I to William Wentworth of Dover NH ? LINKS ACTIVE!
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:44:30 -0500
Am trying to complete - if possible - documentation of an Edward I ancestry for William :
1. Edward I of England (d. 1307] m. 1254 Eleanor of Castile (d. 1290) 
2. Elizabeth of England (d. 1316) m. 1302 Humphrey de Bohun (d. 1322) 
3. Eleanor de Bohun (d. 1363) m. abt 1327 James Butler (d. 1338) 
4. Pernel Butler/Botiler (d. abt 1368) m. bef 1352 Gilbert Talbot (d. 1387) 
5. Richard Talbot (d. 1396) m. bef 1323 Ankaret Le Strange (d. 1413) 
6. Mary Talbot (d. 1433) m. bef 1398 Thomas Greene (d. 1417) 
7. Thomas Greene (d. 1462) m. bef 1434 Marina Bellers (d. 1489) 
8. Elizabeth Green (d. NA) m. cir 1455 (Sir) Brian Sandford (d. aft 1500) 
9. Mary Sandford (d. bef 1545) m. cir 1480 Martin Newcomen (d. 1540) 
10. Mary Newcommen (d. prob aft 1544) m. cir 1505 Robert Burgh/Borough (d. NA) 
11. Agnes Burgh/Borough (d. NA) m. cir 1525 John Gilby (d. NA) 
12. Ellen Gilby (d. bef 1574) m(2) cir 1550 William Wentworth (d. 1574) 
13. Christopher Wentworth (d. bef 1633) m. 1583 Katherine Marbury (d. aft 1633) 
14. William Wentworth (d. aft 1633) m. 1614 Susannah Carter (d. aft 1620) 
15. William Wentworth of Dover NH (d. 1696) m. cir 1640 Elizabeth Kenney(?) (d. aft 1697) 
The obvious major question with the above is Generation 10. While 2 different Newcomen pedigrees indicate that Martin's dau Mary m. Robert Borough/Burgh, there are at least 2 different persons named Robert Burgh/Borough (one of Saltfleetby, the other of Borough Hall) with daughters named Agnes. The only records I've found that distinguish between them are in an IGI film that lacks sources. Given the film's pre-1942 date, the fact that both lines appear on the same film along with seemingly complete family listings for both Robert Burgh families, that the entries are replete with mispellings (the Borough Hall Agnes being identified as Agnes Burroughs 'Gilly' rather than 'Gilby') and that noone seems to reference the records (like they do 'tradition' records), there seems good reason to think the IGI records are based on reliable sources.
My identification of Robert Borough could very well be wrong as well. The highly respected Wentworth scholar Paul C. Reed identified John Gilby's wife Agnes as 'dau of Robert Burgh/Borough of Saltfleetby [co. Linc]' in a 6 Feb 1999 post @ http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/1999-02/0918340116 (sources not stated). This clearly contradicts Hunter, Maddison and the IGI that she was 'of Borough Hall'. If Agnes were indeed dau of Robert of Saltfleetby, the IGI has her mother as Susanna Leigh, which thoroughly destroys the ancestry. But Reed also identified Agnes' grandmother as Isabel Roos, while the IGI shows Isabel 'Rouse' as grandmother to the Borough Hall Agnes. While clearly the 2 lines can be easily confused, Reed is a true scholar and surely knew of the IGI records. Conversely, one cannot overlook that Reed might have intentionally misidentified her on SGM pending a forthcoming publication (like others here, I mourn that Reed's still pending NEHGR Wentworth article - see 1998 post @ http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/1998-11/0910603503 and Feb 1999 post @ http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/1999-02/0919239088 - has yet to appear).
In addition to other useful comments, criticisms and questions, hopefully someone can provide more about the critical 'Borough of Borough Hall' line - and a source.
Terry J Booth
Copyright 14 Apr 2008
 See Leo van de Pas's great Genealogics website for citations for : Edward I @ http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00000809&tree=LEO, Elizabeth of England @ http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00005912&tree=LEO, Eleanor de Bohun @ http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00028705&tree=LEO, Petronilla Butler @ http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00126372&tree=LEO, Richard Talbot @ http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00128036&tree=LEO, Mary Talbot @ http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00198884&tree=LEO, Thomas Greene @ http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00140925&tree=LEO, Elizabeth Greene @ http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00117449&tree=LEO, Mary Sandford @ http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00117443&tree=LEO, Ellen Gilby @ http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00270561&tree=LEO, Christopher Wentworth @ http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00270562&tree=LEO, William Wentworth Sr. @ http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00270564&tree=LEO, William of Dover @ http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00270566&tree=LEO.
 Interestingly, Eleanor's father - King Ferdinando Alfonsez III (who was in turn son of King Alfonso IX) - is brother to the Alfonso de Molina whom Nathaniel Taylor and Todd Farmerie discuss in their Jan 1998 NEHGR article as probably ancestral to Sancha de Ayala. Sancha de Ayala is William of Dover's ancestor via his paternal grandmother Katherine Marbury.
 In the Paget HRH Prince Charles Reference P 5956 (per Genealogics) entry, the wife of Brian Sandford is identified as Elizabeth Greene but her ancestry is not shown. The Genealogics entry for her father Thomas Greene, while showing a dau named Elizabeth (who m. Sir Edward Raleigh) by first wife by Philippa de Ferrers, also does not show a dau named Elizabeth by second wife Marina Bellers. The identity of Elizabeth's father - and a listing of her ancestry - is instead found on page 356 of PA. which states that in addition to a dau Elizabeth by 1st wife Philippe Ferrers, 1 of the 3 dau of Thomas Greene, Knt of Green's Norton and his 2nd wife Mary Bellers was 'Elizabeth (wife of Brian Sanford, Knt.)'. PA then shows a descent for another of these 3 dau, but not for Elizabeth and Sir Brian. The entry also does not identify Sir Brian as 'of Thorpe Salvin'. But the identification of Brian Sandford as 'Knt.' is nonetheless believed to be definitive, since as far as has been determined there was only one Sir Brian in Elizabeth's generation - Sir Brian Sandford of Thorpe Salvin. Sir Brian, grandson of an earlier Sir Brian, famously defected to Henry VII's side (along with Sir John Savage, Sir Digby and their retinues) shortly before the Battle of Bosworth . Can someone cite which of PA's numerous sources contains the statement that Elizabeth's husband was 'Brian Sanford, Knt.' and perhaps provide the context and full text for this identification?
 The Paget HRH Prince Charles Reference O 29777 (per Genealogics) shows only the Newcomen's son Brian, not their daughter Mary. Given the footnote  identification of Elizabeth Greene's mother as Mary (or Marina) Bellers, the re-appearance of the name 'Mary' as Elizabeth's dau is clearly appropriate, and surely 'of Thorpe Salvin' further links her.
 The children of Martin Newcomen of Saltfleetby and Mary dau of Bryan Sandford of Thorpe Salvin, co York, - including both Paget's Brian Newcomen (no doubt named for his illustrious father) and the Newcomen's dau Mary - are identified in Frank Allaben's 1908 'Ancestry of Leander Howard Crall' pages 151-154, (online starting @ http://books.google.com/books?id=YQ9GAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA170). Allaben's pedigree states that Mary [Newcommen of Saltfleetby] m. 'Robert Burgh'. This marriage is confirmed in a shorter Newcomen pedigree that starts with Martin le Newcomen of Saltfleetby and Mary Sandford dau of Brian Sandford of Thorpe Salvin - see TG Vol XIX pages 164-69 (the essential page @ http://books.google.com/books?id=L58RAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA165) which states 'Mary married Robert Burrough'.
 These 2 generations are shown in Hunter's 1896 'Familiae Minorum Genturm' in Harleian @ http://books.google.com/books?id=3AcTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1227, which identifies Agnes as 'dau of Robert Brough of Brough Hall co. York or Linc.', states that she m. 'John Gilby of West Randal [Ravendale] co. Linc', and that the couple had a dau Ellen who m.(1) William Farmery [Ferrars] and m.(2) William Wentworth of 'Gosall' [Goxhill]. William and Ellen are shown with two children, one named Christopher. Maddison's Lincolnshire pedigrees @ http://books.google.com/books?id=aPcMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA401 identifies John's wife as 'Agnes dau of Robert Brough', but only identifies John's oldest son George and not his other children. Hunter indicates some of his sources as Harl. 5845, f. 57 b ; 810, f. 64 ; and 1550, f. 56., see also Harl. 1436, f. 35 b - perhaps these may contain other useful information including something about the Borough family - does someone have access to them?
 The descent from Ellen Gilby and William Wentworth is accepted by most authorities - see for instance RD600, page 824. It is also included in John Wentworth's Apr 1868 NEHGR article on the Wentworth's, later expanded in 1878 into a 3 volume genealogy, with these generations in Vol I of his book available starting @ http://books.google.com/books?id=KR8aAAAAIAAJ&printsec=toc#PPA59,M1.
 The two Robert Borough families are both found on pre-1942 IGI film #184673. Robert of Saltfleetby married a Susanna Leigh, and had a dau named Agnes (husband not identified) along with 2 other children. Robert of Borough Hall in Yorkshire, had a father named Thomas (also of Borough Hall in Yorkshire), a mother named Isabella Rouse [Roos] and a wife named 'Margaret or Maria Newcomer Burrough'. One of his 6 children is identified as 'Agnes Burrough Gilly' [i.e. Gilby] of Borough Hall in Yorkshire, clearly matching her to Hunter's pedigree stating that John Gilby's wife was 'Agnes dau of Robert Brough of Brough Hall, co. York'. For those interested, another IGI record - not on this film - indicates that the gr-grandparents of Agnes of Burough Hall were named Robert Borough and a Miss Billesby. Agnes Burrough Gilby's IGI record - and the other people in the 2 families - can be referenced by entering film #184673, last name 'Burroughs' and region 'British Isles' in the IGI search page @ http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true.
 I have a will for a Thomas Brough of Saltfleetby dated 2 Mar 1554 - who may be Robert of Saltfleetby's father. I'm very poor at deciphering the handwriting (can email it as a pdf attachment if someone wants to help) - in addition to a son Robert he has a wife that looks to be named Margaret, not Isabel. Given that each family line would then contain a grandfather named Thomas, a father named Robert and a dau named Agnes, the potential for confusion seems clear.
 A review of W.A.C. Sandford's downloadable Sandford family history @ http://www.rainbeaux.net/sandfordhistory/SandfordsofWestmorland.doc adds a bit more about the Sandford's of Thorpe Salvin, and clearly links the Sir Brian Sandford (of Thorpe Salvin) of Elizabeth's generation to the Battle of Bosworth field. Sir Brian along with Sir John Savage and Sir Digby are noted in the history books as deserting Richard to Henry's side prior to the battle (for which he was later rewarded by Henry VII). This later Sir Brian Sandford should not be confused with his grandfather, also of Thorpe Salvin, who m. Isabelle Blackwell. The earlier couple is identified in the wills of Isabel's parents at http://www.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/florilegium/lifecycle/lcdth16.html (while called 'Esq.' therein, the original Latin is online and shows him 'armigerous'). This earlier Sir Brian would have been roughly age 100 at the time of Bosworth Field and clearly unable to fight if alive. The wills show that the earlier Brian had no son Brian, but did have an eldest son John who would have to be father of the Bosworth Field Sir Brian based on chronology and heredity (there is an abbreviated Sandford pedigree in Surtees Society 'Visitations of the North' from Ashmolean MSS, in the U Iowa library @ http://www.uiowa.edu/~c030149a/northern/surtees146text.pdf, Page 38 of 236 that shows this same descent, showing the first Sir Brian with a son John who is father to this second Sir Bryan, whose dau Dorothy m. Richard Lasselles Esq. of Stourton). W.A.C's history adds that 'the descent of this [Thorpe Salvin] branch from the Westmorland family will be found in The Sheffield Daily Telegraph of 1st August 1927'. If anyone has access to this obscure article and can post it, it would add insight into Sir Brian's family, ancestral to HRH Prince Charles as well as William Wentworth of NH.
|Edward I to William Wentworth of Dover NH ? LINKS ACTIVE! by "TJ Booth" <>|