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From: Christopher Ingham <>
Subject: Re: Origin of Castro strikes again
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 11:04:32 -0700 (PDT)
References: <901d9e59-3fbd-4160-a785-2b0a553bd4d0@b30g2000prf.googlegroups.com>


On Aug 27, 11:44 pm, wrote:
> In a June post, I presented several possibilities for the ancestry of
> the Castro family. Specifically, the first documented family member,
> Fernando Garces de Hita, has two proposed fathers.  Some would make
> him son of king Garcia of Galicia, while recently Salazar Acha has
> suggested he was instead son of count Garcia Ordonez. This last is
> documented son of a count Ordono Ordonez, and again here we have two
> contrary opinions.  Menendez Pidal and Torres Sevilla, among others,
> would identify him with Ordono Ordonez, son of infantes Ordono Ramirez
> and Cristina Vermudez. Salazar Acha has discounted this
> identification, as the count was Castillian, while the infantes were
> of Asturias.
>
> I have now read an analysis of the ancestry of El Cid's wife that
> throws a further monkey wrench into this identification. Specifically,
> Manuel Carriedo Tejedo looks at the family of Ordono Ramirez and
> Cristina Vermudez, and makes an interesting observation. The version
> typically followed is that of Lucas de Tuy, which goes:
>
> "Ipsa vero Christina genuit ex infante Ordonio coeco filio Ranimiri
> regis plures filios et filias, Adefonsum scilicet, Ordonium, Pelagiam
> comitissam et Eldonciam."
>
> This is interpreted as them having Alfonso, Ordono, Pelayo (with him
> being a countess ignored), and Ildonza. However, Lucas de Tuy is a
> derivative source, largely based on the writings of Pelayo of Oviedo.
> Pelayo of Oviedo describes the family differently:
>
> "Ipsa autem Christinam genuit ex infante Ordonio filio Ranimiri
> infantis caeco plures filios et filias, Adefonsum scilicet Ordonii,
> Sanciam Ordonii et comitissam Elconciam."
>
> The children here are: Alfonso alias Ordono (i.e. Ordonez), Sancha
> Ordonez, and countess Ilconza.  What can account for the differences?
> It could be that Lucas has found additional information, and corrected
> Pelayo (Pelayo is not a perfect source: he seems in error both about
> the ancestry of both Ordono Ramirez and the maternal ancestry of
> Cristina). However, comparing the two, an error seems more likely,  We
> have "Alfonso scilicet Ordonio" converted into two successive
> children, Alfonso and Ordono. Likewise, we have Sancha and countess
> Ilconza replaced with Pelayo, countess and Ildonza.  Importantly,
> Ildonza's husband was Pelayo Froilaz, and it looks like Lucas was
> thinking of him and simply made a slip, replacing Sancha's name with
> that of her brother-in-law and sliding the title from one to the
> other. Likewise, one might expect a Sancha, that being the name of the
> paternal grandmother.
>
> Various attempts have been made to identify the sons, Ordono Ordonez
> and Pelayo Ordonez, and there are contemporary individuals of these
> names, but the names were not uncommon. That of Ordono Ordonez with
> the Castillian count has already been questioned. This analysis
> suggests that these identities are nothing but coincidence, and that
> Ordono Ramirez and Cristina Vermudez had just one son, Alfonso, with
> sons Ordono and Pelayo being nothing but mistakes.
>
> The implications of this are that the Castros, it would seem, do not
> represent the male line of the ancient kings of Asturias/Leon. As
> Alfonso Ordonez had only daughters, there would be no male line
> descent through Sancho the Fat and Ramiro III. There are other lines
> that may persist - Cristina had an illegitimate brother who had sons,
> and it has been suggested (not all that convincingly in my opinion)
> that the counts of Cea were male-line descendants of the royal family
> and they have lines that disappear into obscurity. However, this
> particular possibility seems off the table.
>
> Just to summarize the main conclusion, Carriedo Tejedo addresses the
> ancestry of Jimena through the process of elimination.  He accepts the
> charter which makes Jimena daughter of Christina and niece of Urraca,
> daughter of Fernando Gundemariz, following Menendez Pidal in making
> Christina sister of Urraca, and hence Jimena a maternal granddaughter
> of Fernando. He rejects Menendez Pidal's suggestion that Fernando
> Gundemariz married Jimena, daughter of Alfonso V.  Long ago in this
> group, I had pointed out that it was chronologically impossible, and
> Carriedo follows a similar chronological argument with regard to
> Jimena Alfonso's late birth as daughter of Alfonso and his second
> wife, Urraca Garcia of Navarre. (Many sources make her daughter of his
> first wife, or illegitimate, but her name, which had not appeared in
> the royal family for too many generations, is much more likely to be
> that of Jimena, mother of Urraca Garces, and likewise, Jimena Alfonso
> first appears in a charter 17 years after Alfonso's second marriage,
> suggesting that even if she wasn't Urraca's daughter, her age was
> similar.) I had also pointed out that Fernando Gundemariz and his wife
> Muniadomna Ordonez appear in a charter with Jimena Alfonso at a date
> too late for the latter to be grandmother of Jimena Diaz by the same
> Fernando.  Carriedo suggests that this Fernando Gundemariz, with wife
> Muniadomna, was a Portuguese nobleman distinct from the Fernando
> Gundemariz of interest, an Asturian. As evidence, he shows several
> other cases where there were contemporary nobleman of the same name,
> an argument by analogy which I do not find strong, particularly with
> the appearance of Fernando and Jimena Alfonso in the same document,
> suggesting he is the same man associated with other infantes. Carriedo
> needs to do this, as he intends to marry Fernando Gundemariz to the
> royal kinswoman. He concludes that Fernando's unknown wife must be
> granddaughter of Vermudo, and finds just four, eliminating Jimena as
> well as Eldonza Ordonez (married to count Pelayo Froilaz) and Jimena
> Ordonez (daughter of Vermudo's bastard Ordono, married to Munio
> Rodriguez) and that leaves Sancha Ordonez, daughter of Ordono Ramirez
> and Cristina, by process of elimination, as the wife of Fernando
> Gundemariz.  He supports this with the pattern of interactions between
> the families and the (at the time rare) name Cristina (a combination
> that at one point led me to speculate a similar connection with
> Cristina Alfonso, niece of Sancha Ordonez). He is critically lacking
> in one important item - anything that shows Fernando with this wife,
> or any record of this Sancha Ordonez whatsoever.
>
> I note that Torres Sevilla mentions his theory among several, but
> clearly does not accept it as 'the' solution, and she does not follow
> him at all with regard to the rearranged/restored family of Ordono
> Ramirez and Christina.
>
> taf
>
> Manuel Carriedo Tejedo, "La ascendencia de dona Jimena Diaz, mujer
> del Cid", Boletin del Instituto de Estudios Asturianos, No 113 (1984)
> p. 999-1016.

Todd,

Have you considered gathering together onto a website your copious and
erudite posts on medieval Spanish and allied families? This would be
invaluable for researchers. The essays could be arranged
chronologically (in the order in which you wrote them) or
thematically, perhaps with annotations providing synopses and
corrections (e.g., "in light of new research, see item xyz below").
An index of persons would be very useful, too, but this would probably
be quite a project in itself.

Please do this -- when you have the time, of course.

Christopher Ingham



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