GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2009-05 > 1243517825
From: Francisco Tavares de Almeida <>
Subject: Re: Nuno Ordonez, infante de Galiza
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 06:37:05 -0700 (PDT)
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"When Napoleon's armies occupied both Portugal and Spain in the early
This was well in the early XIX.
And the message was meant to be sent in pvt but I pressed the wrong
On 28 Maio, 01:35, wrote:
> On May 27, 4:23 pm, Francisco Tavares de Almeida
> <> wrote:
> > You are expecting too much of me.
> > Elvira Mendes is found in tree XXVII, her mother Tutadona in XXVI. So
> > it would be
> > 1. Tutadona
> > 2. Munio Forjaz
> > 3. Elvira Pais (previous? relation with Ordonho III king of León)
> OK. None of the sources I have handy know that Fruela had a son
> Munio. (And I don't see a source for Egas among these families -
> maybe through the mysterious Sarracina, or just one of those quirky
> > Bermudo II 'o Gotoso' (b. 953 - d. 999) is presented as illegitimate,
> > son of the above mentioned relationship in 3..
> > Please give me a break and don't ask the reasoning. ;-)
> Here I know the reasoning. There is nothing new here, I just wanted to
> know which side of the fence he comes down on.
> The reasoning behind the illegitimacy argument:
> 1. Vermudo did not succeed his father.
> 2. Arabic sources made a vague slur on Alfonso's parentage
> 3. Vermudo referred to Gonzalo Betotez as his grandfather, and neither
> Ordono nor his wife descend from Gonzalo.
> The counter arguments to these points (legitimacy being taken as the
> default, unless there is sufficient reason to question it):
> 1. He was quite young, and between Alfonso III and Vermudo, you have
> 14 kings, of which only three succeeded their father.
> 2. Who knows what the Arabic writers meant, particularly when the idea
> of legitimate marriage vs concubinage was not central to Al-Andalus
> 3. This was taken to be metaphorical, or else in reference to the fact
> that Ordono II had been married to Gonzalo's daughter, but divorced
> her within months. Since such usage was not usual practice, point 3
> was the primary reason to favor an illegitimate Vermudo.
> That is where it rested before a critical new piece of evidence
> entered the argument. Specifically, while metaphorical grandparentage
> was not typical (except the standard extension of the term grandfather
> to great-grandfather, etc.), what was common was in-law usage, and
> with the discovery that Velasquita, Vermudo's wife, was a descendant
> of Gonzalo, it removes this strongest argument for his legitimacy. As
> the others are not that strong to begin with (the isue never would
> have been raised without this supposed descent from Betotez), this has
> led several scholars to back off the illegitimacy position.
> P.S. Is de Almeida Fernandes a close kinsman of your mother?
|Re: Nuno Ordonez, infante de Galiza by Francisco Tavares de Almeida <>|