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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2009-05 > 1243517825


From: Francisco Tavares de Almeida <>
Subject: Re: Nuno Ordonez, infante de Galiza
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 06:37:05 -0700 (PDT)
References: <mailman.2462.1243364395.2001.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com> <3be12aae-dd9b-4794-9da7-26b0e33208c6@v4g2000vba.googlegroups.com> <2a20c6c2-9e36-4fd4-8628-1dbf822aeb99@z16g2000prd.googlegroups.com> <9dddfdbe-d2a6-4f52-b66a-3bc14fcdc518@g19g2000yql.googlegroups.com> <28f3b52d-c979-4797-9f52-712ca3d8fe09@v35g2000pro.googlegroups.com> <97154c0f-bc91-4665-9435-eb16a0631a11@c36g2000yqn.googlegroups.com> <4c7f94d2-0259-440a-b792-e5b281b2d1a4@y34g2000prb.googlegroups.com>


Correction:
"When Napoleon's armies occupied both Portugal and Spain in the early
18th ..."
This was well in the early XIX.

And the message was meant to be sent in pvt but I pressed the wrong
button. Sorry.

Best regards,
Francisco



On 28 Maio, 01:35, wrote:
> On May 27, 4:23 pm, Francisco Tavares de Almeida
>
> <> wrote:
> > You are expecting too much of me.
>
> Sorry.
>
> > Elvira Mendes is found in tree XXVII, her mother Tutadona in XXVI. So
> > it would be
> > 1. Tutadona
> > 2. Munio Forjaz
> > 3. Elvira Pais (previous? relation with Ordonho III king of León)
>
> OK.  None of the sources I have handy know that Fruela had a son
> Munio.  (And I don't see a source for Egas among these families -
> maybe through the mysterious Sarracina, or just one of those quirky
> things.)
>
> > Bermudo II 'o Gotoso' (b. 953 - d. 999) is presented as illegitimate,
> > son of the above mentioned relationship in 3..
>
> > Please give me a break and don't ask the reasoning. ;-)
>
> Here I know the reasoning. There is nothing new here, I just wanted to
> know which side of the fence he comes down on.
>
> The reasoning behind the illegitimacy argument:
> 1. Vermudo did not succeed his father.
> 2. Arabic sources made a vague slur on Alfonso's parentage
> 3. Vermudo referred to Gonzalo Betotez as his grandfather, and neither
> Ordono nor his wife descend from Gonzalo.
>
> The counter arguments to these points (legitimacy being taken as the
> default, unless there is sufficient reason to question it):
>
> 1. He was quite young, and between Alfonso III and Vermudo, you have
> 14 kings, of which only three succeeded their father.
> 2. Who knows what the Arabic writers meant, particularly when the idea
> of legitimate marriage vs concubinage was not central to Al-Andalus
> inheritance.
> 3. This was taken to be metaphorical, or else in reference to the fact
> that Ordono II had been married to Gonzalo's daughter, but divorced
> her within months.  Since such usage was not usual practice, point 3
> was the primary reason to favor an illegitimate Vermudo.
>
> That is where it rested before a critical new piece of evidence
> entered the argument.  Specifically, while metaphorical grandparentage
> was not typical (except the standard extension of the term grandfather
> to great-grandfather, etc.), what was common was in-law usage, and
> with the discovery that Velasquita, Vermudo's wife, was a descendant
> of Gonzalo, it removes this strongest argument for his legitimacy. As
> the others are not that strong to begin with (the isue never would
> have been raised without this supposed descent from Betotez), this has
> led several scholars to back off the illegitimacy position.
>
> P.S. Is de Almeida Fernandes a close kinsman of your mother?
>
> taf


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