GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2009-06 > 1245902191
Subject: Update on Anne Boteler and Thomas fitzJames FitzGerald
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 20:56:31 -0700 (PDT)
Good Evening All,
This, while quite interesting, is very complicated and messy and I
hope that you can follow.
1. For those of you who are unaware, Gerald, 3rd Earl of Desmonds'
wife is Alinore Boteler, dau.of James Boteler, 2nd Earl of Ormonde,
and sister of James Boteler 3rd Earl of Ormonde and aunt to James
Boteler 4th Earl of Ormonde whose dau, Anne is in contracted marriage
to James 6th Earl of Desmond's(Alinore Boteler is his mother) son,
Thomas fitzjames fitzGerald.
So that makes James, E of Ormonde and James, E of Desmond 1st cousins
and their children that are getting married 2nd or 3rd cousins??? and
there must be a papal dispensation somewhere.
To further complicate matters, altho only a sidebar to the original
post, James 3rd E. of Ormonde cohabits with Katherine fitzGerald,
sister of John and James, 4th and 6th E. of Desmond and has 4 sons by
her and in the Calendar of Ormonde Deeds lists the lands etc. that he
gives to them and she then later marries another man. this makes them
1/2 brother and 1/2 cousins to James 4th E of Ormonde and 1/2 cousins
and who knows what else to John and James 4th and 6th E of
2. Volume III, page 34, Calendar of Ormonde Deeds, I.P.M., January 7
1421, James fitz Gerald is called 30 years of age and more, and he is
NOT married yet! this is important as you will soon see. If he is 30 +
in 1421, it means that he was born at least before 1390 and as early
as possibly 1381, his mother Alinore Boteler, died in 1395. C E Wood
in a previous post cannot be right about his son, Thomas fitzJames
fitzGerald as an approx birthdate of 1410, as that would make Thomas a
natural son and he could NOT have become Earl of Desmond, further as
stated in previous posts as per the Calendar of Ormonde Deeds" both
Anne and Thomas were of "tender years of age".
3. April 1422, James, E of Ormonde makes James, E. of Desmond his
seneschal of his lands etc.
More to come tomorrow hopefully, eyes are tire and so are my fingers.
Emmett L. Butler