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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2010-03 > 1269225192


From: John <>
Subject: Re: those Butlers again
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 19:33:12 -0700 (PDT)
References: <43774644-9331-4d5c-899b-36c95d5be5a6@k36g2000prb.googlegroups.com>


On Mar 21, 6:31 pm, lostcopper <> wrote:
> Here I was perfectly satisfied with my Butler pedigree when up jumped
> a whole new kettle of fish. My mothers great-great-great-grandfather
> was Theobald "Big Toby" Butler of Wilford, Drom & Knockra, d. 1795.
> Information from the late Lord Dunboyne &, initially, from Burke's
> Peerage, gave his only wife as one Elizabeth Lee of Waterford,
> daughter of the Archdeacon. Now Peerage.com says that a marriage
> certificate has been found showing his marriage, on 29 October 1751,
> to Bridget Butler, d. after 1774, daughter of Edmund Butler, High
> Sheriff of Queens &, later, Kilkenny, 1700-1759, & his wife Anne
> Skellern. Elizabeth Lee is given as his 2nd wife & mother of Elizabeth
> who married Thomas McLaughlin. My William is explicitly shown as son
> of Bridget. A search through Googlebooks & other usual haunts found
> Edmund & Anne but not Theobald & Bridget. Peerage.com  gives its
> source for Bridget as Burke's Peerage, 107th ed., vol. 1, p. 1213 (I
> have not been able to lay hands on a copy of this edition yet &
> although I paid good money to Burke's for website access, I have not
> yet managed to find even one pedigree with their search feature even
> though I KNOW they are in their published work ); & Burke's Irish
> Family Records, 1976, p. 199 . Does anyone have any special insight as
> to whether William's mother was Bridget or Elizabeth?
>

If your William Butler is the one who d. 3 Jan 1812, then
ThePeerage.com has apparently caught and corrected an error in the
107th edition of Burke's Peerage (and earlier editions as well) by
saying that he was the son of Theoballd Butler by Bridget Butler.
Here's what the 107th edition (at least the 106th edition also) has to
say:

"Theobald ("Big Toby") [Butler]; m. 1st 1751 Bridget, dau. of Edmund
Butler, of Wilton, and had issue; m. 2nd Elizabeth, dau. of Edward
Lee, Archdeacon of Waterford, and by HER [emphasis added] had, with
other issue:

William, of Drom and Wilford; m. Caroline (d. 1837), dai. of 1st Baron
Massy (qv) and d. 3 Jan 1812..." [end of quote]

The cited page in the 1976 BIFR does give the date you indicate for
the marriage license of Theobald Butler and Bridget Butler. It says
that Bridget was his 1st wife and had issue by him but doesn't give
any names of the children. However, it also says that Bridget died
shortly after 1774 (a date not given in BP). This date, when combined
with the fact that BP says that the son William himself had a son
Theobald born ca. 1790, suggests that William was in fact a son by by
his father Theobald's 1st marriage rather than the 2nd marriage.
Since the 2nd marriage must have been 1775 or later, William could not
possibly be of the 2nd marriage and have had a son by 1790. BP
apparently got it wrong and ThePeerage.com has corrected for this, it
seems (although they should have noted the correction more explicitly,
I'd say).

With respect to your second question on Piers FitzThomas Butler,
natural son of the 10th Earl of Ormonde, the same article in the 1976
BIFR says of his maternity "(alleged to be by Queen Elizabeth I,
according to Dictionnaire de la Noblesse, 2nd edn, vol. iii, Paris
1771)". So at least you have a source for the allegation -some ill-
informed or unscrupulous Frenchman!! :-)


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