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From: Douglas Richardson <>
Subject: Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Joan de Vivonne, wife of Reynold Fitz Peter, Knt.
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 09:29:11 -0700 (PDT)
References: <18c02840-5c53-49cf-a212-d8e9cfdde912@w20g2000prm.googlegroups.com><9a9e1e3e-c8e8-4f81-b686-9a567231dfdc@m24g2000prc.googlegroups.com> <3377cce6-ff8a-49a0-ba02-88acaff11d6c@r1g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>


Dear Margaret ~

Thank you for your good post and also for your good article. I
enjoyed reading your article very much, especially since I descend
from Joan de Vivonne, wife of Sir Reynold Fitz Peter. I'm also
related to John de Beauchamp, husband of her sister, Cecily de
Vivonne.

When I have a moment later today, I'll forward onto you my file notes
on the Vivonne and Malet families.

One point that I'd like to clear up is exactly what land holdings the
Vivonne family held in France. Following his death, William de Forz
was styled "seigneur of Forz" in one record you cited. That is good
evidence. But it also appears that William de Forz' daughters had
rights to the châtelenie [lordship] of Vivonne. Did the family own
both Forz and Vivonne?

I see that Archives historiques du Poitou, 19 (1888): 288 states that
a later Aimery de Rochechouart (died 1397) held the "land of Vivonne"
in right of his first wife, Jeanne, eldest daughter of Jean II
d'Archiac, seigneur of Saint-Germain-sur-Vienne The author states
that Jean II d'Archiac obtained Vivonne is right of his mother, Marie
Chasteignier, which Marie was previously the wife of Savary IV de
Vivonne. This might be true, but Jean II d'Archiac might also have
obtained his right to Vivonne by way of his lineal descent from
William de Forz' daughter, Mabel de Vivonne, which Mabel was the wife
of Fulk (or Foucard) d'Archiac.

Next, do you know if Savary de Vivonne was the son of Hugh de Vivonne
and Mabel Malet? As you pointed out, Savary de Vivonne was guardian
of William de Forz' children. So I assume he was near related to
William de Forz.

Next, I noted previously that William de Forz' grandson, Foucard
d’Archiac, was styled "kinsman” [consanguin] by Yolande de Lusignan,
Countess of La Marche. I suspect Foucard d'Archiac was related to
Yolande de Lusignan through his great-grandfather, Hugh de Vivonne
(husband of Mabel Malet). Perhaps Hugh de Vivonne's mother was a
Lusignan. The Vivonne family bore a different set of arms than the
Lusignan family.

Lastly, I assume you know that Hugh de Vivonne's nephew was Peter
Chaceporc, king’s clerk, who was Keeper of the King’s Wardrobe, 1241–
1254, Warden of the Forest of Dean and Constable of St. Briavels
Castle, 1248–1254. For the connection between Hugh de Vivonne and
Peter Chaceporc, see Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum 6(1) (1830): 498
(Hugh de Vivonne styled “uncle” [avunculi] of Peter Chaceporc, late
Keeper of the King’s Wardrobe, in charter of King Henry III of England
dated 1255).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


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