GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

From: "Leo" <>
Subject: Fw: "New" Line from James II and James IV
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 11:31:31 +1100

I have to apologise to Paul. After I sent my message I realised I should
have read his sources as they gave answers to some of my wonderings. I find
his findings quite compelling. I hope others will respond, as I am sure
others can contribute to his search.
With best wishes,
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 9:44 AM
Subject: "New" Line from James II and James IV


> Dear Paul Gifford,
>
> I found your message utterly fascinating and I hope you can find enough
> proof to make this line stand.
>
> Having said that, I can only wonder.
>
> Your generation 3. Alexander Stewart, bishop of Moray, born circa 1473,
> you present he had a possible illegitimate daughter by Lady Margaret
> Stewart (daughter of James IV) she was born about 1497.
>
> It is, of course, possible but.........
> That illegitimate daughter (Margaret Stewart) is a granddaughter of
> Margaret Drummond, who in turn is a great-aunt of David, 2nd Lord
> Drummond, the husband of that Margaret Stewart. This makes them second
> cousins, surely that knowledge should have been known?
>
> Burke's Peerage 1999 page 2224 tells that David 2nd Lord Drummond's first
> wife Margaret Stewart was "conceivably a daughter of Alexander Stewart,
> bishop of Moray". No mention of the mother of this Margaret Stewart.
>
> The Complete Peerage Volume IV page 471 tells that David 2nd Lord Drummond
> married in 1535 Margaret "said to have been daughter (possibly
> illegitimate daughter) of Alexander Stewart, bishop of Moray."
>
> In 1535 could bishop's have legitimate daughters? I have not found a wife
> for this Alexander. A footnote on the CP page gives Alexander bishop of
> Moray another illegitimate daughter Margaret who married twice. This gives
> him two daughters Margaret.
>
> Returning to Lady Margaret Stewart, daughter of James IV. Born in 1497,
> married in 1512 John Lord Gordon who died 5 December 1517. It took her
> until 1531 to marry her first cousin Sir John Drummond of Innerpeffry.
> This gives a period of 14 years in which she could have had an affaire
> with Alexander bishop of Moray (a first cousin of her father).
>
> Could such a relationship have been covered up so thoroughly for so long?
> "Their daughter" was conceivably a daughter of Alexander but so far no
> mention of the mother.
>
> Now, generation 7 Sibilla Ogilvie, married (1) John Butter (2) Sir John
> Falconer.
> Gary Boyd Roberts, in his 600 Immigrants page 117, mentions Sibilla only
> as a spouse, it is Sir John Falconer whose lineage is displayed. I am
> sure if there was a chance Sibilla was so closely descended from either
> (or both) James II and James IV, he would have known.
>
> I look forward to see what others think.
> With best wishes
> Leo van de Pas,
> Canberra, Australia
>
>
>
> Paul's message :
>
> I've been working on the following line with Chuck Owens. We're both
> descended from Alexander Falconar, who settled in Maryland in the
> early 18th century. Any comments or vetting are very welcome. It
> includes a daughter of two illegitimate Stewart descendants!
>
> 1. James II, King of Scotland
> 2. Alexander Stewart, created Duke of Albany; b. c.1454, d. 1485; m.
> (1) Catherine Sinclair (dissolved 2 Mar. 1477/8)
> 3. Alexander Stewart, commendator of Inchaffray, Bishop of Moray, b.
> c.1473, d. 1537 by Margaret Stewart, Lady Gordon, widow of George
> Gordon, Master of Huntly (d. 1517), natural daughter of James IV by
> Margaret Drummond, b. 1497, d. after 1562.
> 4. Margaret Stewart m. between 5 Jan. and 5 Mar. 1535/6 David, 2nd
> Lord Drummond, b. c.1515?, d. May 1571
> 5. Sibilla Drummond m. (by contract dated 25 Aug. 1557) Gilbert
> Ogilvy of that Ilk (of Powrie)
> 6. Mr. John Ogilvy of Powrie, b. c.1560, m. Elizabeth Scrymgeour
> 7. Sibilla Ogilvy, d. 4 Dec. 1634 at Montrose, m. (1) John Butter,
> fiar of Gormack (d. Jan. 1623); (2) John (later Sir John) Falconer
> 8. David Falconar, merchant m. Margaret Molleson
> 9. John Falconar, tobacco merchant, b. 11 Mar. 1677 Edinburgh, d. 2
> Jan. 1729/30 London; in New Jersey and Maryland, 1699-1705; m. 6 Sept.
> 1705, in London, Anna Quare. No male-line descendants; uncertain
> whether there are any female-line descendants living today.
> 9. Gilbert Falconar, b. 30 June 1686 Edinburgh, d. 1736 Kent Co.,
> Md.; emigrated to Maryland in 1704; m. 12 Jan. 1709/10, in
> Philadelphia, Hannah Hardiman. Descendants in both male and female
> lines living today.
> 9. Jane Falconar, b. c.1690; came to Pennsylvania and Maryland, 1711;
> m. after 1730 Simon Wilmer, of Kent Co., Md. No issue.
> 9. Alexander Falconar, b. c.1693, d. after 1758, in Prince Georges
> Co., Md.; m 9 Feb. 1718/9, in Prince Georges Co., Md., Susannah
> Duvall. Descendants in both male and female lines living today.
>
> Sources and notes
>
> 1.-2. Sir James Balfour Paul, The Scots Peerage (Edinburgh: David
> Douglas, 1904), 1: 151-153.
>
> 3. Paul, Scots Peerage, 1: 153. He had six illegitimate children by
> unknown mistresses; see Scotland, Register of the Privy Seal, 2
> (1529-1542): 191, no. 1419, Scotland, Register of the Great Seal.
>
> 4. Paul, Scots Peerage, 7: 45-46. The article in the SP says that
> Margaret Stewart's "parentage has never been satisfactorily
> ascertained." A footnote that mentions that Alexander Stewart had
> another daughter named Margaret seems to be the cause of the writer's
> dissatisfaction. Actually, Alexander had TWO daughters, besides this
> one, named Margaret, as well as two sons named Alexander. In the
> Papers of Drummond, Earl of Perth, at the National Archives of
> Scotland, there is an obligation (GD160/4/6) dated 5 Jan. 1535/6,
> where James V promises to infeft David, Lord Drummond, lands which had
> been forfeited by John, Lord Drummond, his great-grandfather; for
> this, David was to marry Margaret Stewart, daughter of Margaret
> Stewart, Lady Gordon, the King's sister. The marriage took place by 5
> Mar. 1535/6, when a sasine was granted to them (GD160/14/17). William
> Drummond, 1st Viscount of Strathallan, in his The Genealogy of the
> Most Noble House of Drummond (written in 1681; Glasgow, 1889), pp.
> 169, 171, cites writs dated 1525 and 1538 then at Drummond Castle
> which named Alexander Stewart as her father, as well as the one dated
> 5 Jan. 1535/6. William Drummond of Hawthornden wrote about 1630 that
> David, Lord Drummond, married the daughter of Alexander Steuart,
> Bishop of Moray, "which Margaret Lady Gordon bore to him whilst she
> was affianced to him" (see Appendix 1, Genealogy of the Most Noble
> House of Drummond, p. 248).
>
> 5. For the relationships to her parents, see the previous
> paragraph.
>
> 6. Drummond, Genealogy of the Most Noble House of Drummond, p. 171,
> which says that Sibilla and Gilbert were the parents of "a sone,
> Thomas, who succeeded, and a daughter, Sibilla Ogilvie, who was
> married to [blank]." Jack Blair, Ogilvy of That Ilk (Dundee: Tay
> Valley Family History Society, 2006), p. 23, writes that John, heir of
> Gilbert Ogilvy, was "probably by" Isabel Beaton, Gilbert's first wife,
> who died young in the period 1555-1556. However, in an email to Chuck
> Owens, Blair now feels that Sibilla was his mother, partly because
> John Ogilvy had acquired a master's degree between 1575 and 1581 and
> was probably the John Ogilvy at St. Leonard's College, St. Andrew's
> University who was nominated for baccalaureate in 1574/5 and graduated
> in 1576, placing his year of birth at about 1560. But the fact that
> William Drummond, who was closely related on both father's and
> mother's side to this couple and was only two generations removed,
> wrote that Sibilla was the mother of Thomas [sic], "who succeeded," is
> significant. John succeeded, but he was succeeded by his son Thomas.
> Thomas Ogilvy of Powrie was the last of the line, dying about 1660,
> and William Drummond may have known him personally. John Ogilvy of
> Powrie was a Catholic spy; his biography can be found in the DNB and
> Oxford Dictionary of National Biography.
>
> 7. Blair, Ogilvy of That Ilk, p. 33, which cites a marriage contract
> dated at Dundee on 26 June 1615, where she is described as sister
> german to Thomas Ogilvy of Powrie. Sir John Scrymgeour of Dudhope was
> cautioner. John Butter died in January 1623 (testament, CC20/4/8 St.
> Andrews Commissary Court). Blair believes she married John Falconer,
> son of Sir Alexander Falconer of Halkerton. Sibilla Ogilvy's
> testament dative (CC3/3/5), proved in the Brechin Commissary Court,
> includes two substantial debts (of 116 pounds and 333 pounds; these
> were her only credits) from Archibald Butter in Gormack, undoubtedly
> the brother of John who by his testament appointed him tutor-
> testamentar of his three children. I am looking for further support of
> this identity, but her rare name, the fact that a document places John
> Falconer in Dundee in 1628, and these points make the identity pretty
> strong. There are no known competing possibilities.
>
> 8. Paul M. Gifford, Falconer of Halkerton (Bowie, Md.: Heritage
> Books, 1997), 83-87. In Moses Bundle 254/7731, Edinburgh District
> Archives, there is a memorial in the case David Falconar and Sir John
> Falconar, in which it is related that after the Restoration, David's
> younger brother Sir John went to London to plead for David's inclusion
> as substitute Master of the Mint, and met with the Earl of Airlie and
> Sir James Ogilvy, "the only Mother's friends that David had at
> London."
>
> 9. Gifford, Falconer of Halkerton.
>
> Paul Gifford
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This thread:

• Fw: "New" Line from James II and James IV by "Leo" <>