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From: "John P. Ravilious" <>
Subject: Re: Agatha de Hommet
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 09:00:51 -0800 (PST)
References: <mailman.10.1289240847.32641.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com><ib9m11$123$1@news.eternal-september.org><ibndug$ikq$1@news.eternal-september.org><00ead6a9-57e6-4a5a-8d9c-dcbc020cbd3b@fl7g2000vbb.googlegroups.com><ichre0$o48$1@news.eternal-september.org><icnk3c$11q$1@news.eternal-september.org>


On Nov 26, 1:28 am, "Peter Stewart" <> wrote:
> "Peter Stewart" <> wrote in message
>
> news:ichre0$o48$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>
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>
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>
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> > "xager8on" <> wrote in message
> >news:...
> >> Peter, I have a question.
>
> >> Is Williams' (son of Richard) wife Agnes de Saye or Lucy de Haye?
>
> > Richard's wife was Agnes, called "de Beaumont", whose father was Jordan de
> > Sai, seigneur of Aunay.
>
> >> AR8 214A-27 Agatha du Hommet father as William, d. 1180, Seigneur Le
> >> Hommet by his wife Lucy. Whereas, line 184A-6 identifies Agnes du
> >> Hommet father as William, d. abt 1213 Seigneur Le Hommet by his wife
> >> as Lucy.
>
> > Agatha's father William was married to Lucy, whose parentage is unknown.
>
> >> There seems to be a bit of confusion as to father/son.
>
> > Richard died in 1181. William was living in November 1205 and apparently
> > died not long afterwards, some years before 1213. I have no idea where AR8
> > got either 1180 or ca 1213 for his death.
>
> This was careless on my part - I didn't read the footnotes.
>
> Richard I of Le Hommet died after spending his last year and a half as a
> monk at Aunay according to Robert de Torigni, and this account comes under
> 1181.
>
> However, the text has been wrongly rubricated by a copyist: the passage
> occurs shortly after noting that King Henry II held his Christmas court at
> Nottingham, which was in 1179 so that Richard du Hommet's death should
> evidently be placed early in 1180.
>
> An obituary of Mont-Saint-Michel records him under 20 February. If both
> reports are correct then he probably retired as constable of Normandy
> (succeeded in office by his son Guillaume) ca August 1178.
>
> Peter Stewart- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

------------------------

Thanks Peter,

That certainly clarifies the confusion re: Juliana, and puts
Gilla (or Giles) de la Haye in her place.

Also, for the extracts from the grants by Matilda de Vernon (lady
de la Haye) and her son in law Richard du Hommet. In the charters
given in the Bibliotheque de l'Ecole des Chartes, there is a grant
dated 1220 by William du Hommet, constable of Normandy which is of
interest for several reasons:

' Sciant omnes qui sunt et qui futuri sunt quod ego Willelmus de
Humetis, constabularius Normannie, dimisi abbatie de Blancalanda
decimas omnium releviorum que exeunt de maneriis meis Poupeville et
Varreville quas injuste detinueram, et concessi quod abbatia habeat
illas in perpetuum, bene et in pace, sine reclamatione mea vel heredum
meorum. Concessi etiam quod abbatia possideat pacifice omnes décimas
denariorum meorum qui proveniunt de portagio bladi et de factura
brasii mei de Varrevilla, que ad abbatiam eandem pertinebant cum
predictis releviis ex dono Ricardi de Haya, avi mei,et ex concessione
Ricardi de Humetis patris mei ; et insuper dimisi omnino calengium
meum quod habebant super decimam lx solidorum quos abbatia de
Cesarisburgo habet annuatim in manerio meo de Varrevilla. Et ut hec
omnia perpetuam firmitatem habeant, presentem cartam sigillo domini
Hugonis Constanciensis episcopi et sigilli mei feci testimonio
confirmari. Actum anno gratie millesimo ducentesimo vigesimo. ' [1]



It is widely held that Richard du Hommet predeceased his father,
with his (alleged) brother William succeeding as Constable of
Normandy. This would appear to make sense, as it is printed in Bain
concerning the marriage of Clemence de Fougeres to Ranulf, Earl of
Chester that 'William de Humez owes 75 marks for marrying his niece to
the Earl of Chester' [Bain, CDS I:63, cites Pipe Roll 7 John, Rot. 18,
dorso]. The foregoing charter makes it apparent that William du
Hommet 'the younger' was the son of Richard du Hommet by his wife
Gilla de la Haye [he calls his grandfather 'Ricardi de Haya, avi
mei']. The William de Humez named ca 1206 was the husband of Lucy,
and father of Richard du Hommet, not his brother: where Bain took
'nepta' to mean niece, in this instance it certainly mean
'granddaughter'.

Further, the grant of Duddingston, Northants. by Nichole de la
Haye to her niece Nichole du Hommet also makes sense: as William du
Hommet was the (French) Constable of Normandy and had lost any English
lands or claim to same due to the Pacificiaton of Normandy, it was
left to the young Nichole's English kin to provide her maritagium.


William du Hommet = Lucy
constable of Normandy I
________________________I______
I I
Richard Agatha
= Gilla de = Guillaume de
la Haye Fougeres (dvp)
I I
____I_____________ _______I_______
I I I I
William Nichole Geoffrey Clemence
constable of = Oliver sr de = 1) Alan
Normandy, Deincourt Fougeres de Dinan
1220 (d 1212) = 2) Ranulf
E of Chester



Cheers,

John



Notes:

[1] Notice sur les attaches d'un sceau de Richard Coeur de Lion, in
Bibliotheque de l'Ecole des Chartes (Paris: J. B. DuMoulin, 1853), 3rd
ser., IV:60, note 4. This charter was evidently extracted from
Stapleton, Magni rotuli Scaccarii Normanniae, vol. I, p. cxlv.


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