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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2011-01 > 1294181846


From: John Watson <>
Subject: Re: Sibyl de Valoignes
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 14:57:26 -0800 (PST)
References: <mailman.10.1293899430.31600.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com><6ebe1f9f-a943-438d-8749-722a6761631f@r8g2000prm.googlegroups.com><6b230dbf-7a20-43d4-bb61-5b1259d7021a@fo10g2000vbb.googlegroups.com><aea31e99-c29c-4acd-9e04-f8a22123ae91@o14g2000prn.googlegroups.com><13771d8a-2198-42d2-b4fb-6ec50b774680@l22g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>


On Jan 5, 3:53 am, "John P. Ravilious" <> wrote:
> On Jan 4, 2:57 pm, John Watson <> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 5, 12:55 am, "John P. Ravilious" <> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 3, 3:26 pm, John Watson <> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 1, 11:30 pm, Ronald Di Iorio <> wrote:
>
> > > > > I have no evidence as to her parentage and would like to see some myself.  Here is the note I have in my database:
>
> > > > > "After the death of her third husband she became a nun at Appleton Priory and died there.  She is often confused with Sibyl de Valognes who married  Robert de Stuteville.  That Sibyl was the daughter of Philip. de Valoines of Panmure (d. 1215), chamberlain to the king of Scots.
>
> > > > > The thrice married Sibyl could be the sister of Philip."
>
> > > > > Ron
>
> > > > > --- On Sat, 1/1/11, John Watson <> wrote:
>
> > > > > > From: John Watson <>
> > > > > > Subject: Sibyl de Valoignes
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Date: Saturday, January 1, 2011, 10:16 AM
> > > > > > Hi all,
>
> > > > > > Does anyone know of any evidence pointing to the parentage
> > > > > > of Sibyl de
> > > > > > Valoignes, who married firstly Robert de Ros of Helmsley
> > > > > > (d. ca.
> > > > > > 1162), secondly, about 1166 William de Percy (d. ca. 1174)
> > > > > > and thirdly
> > > > > > in 1182, Ralph d'Aubigny (d. 1191).
>
> > > > > > Regards,
>
> > > > > > John
>
> > > > > > -------------------------------
> > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> > > > > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the
> > > > > > subject and the body of the message
>
> > > > Hi,
>
> > > > I have Sybil as the daughter of Roger de Valoignes and Agnes, and
> > > > sister of Philip de Valoignes (and sister also of Peter, Robert,
> > > > Geoffrey, John and Roger) which seems to fit most of the known facts.
> > > > Agnes gave land to Binham for the souls of her sons and daughters, so
> > > > we know she had daughters. But I have searched in vain for a charter
> > > > of any of these Valoignes which is witnessed by any of Sybil's three
> > > > husbands or her children (or vice versa) which would tend to confirm
> > > > the relationship.
>
> > > > Regards,
>
> > > > John- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > -------------------------
>
> > > Dear John,
>
> > >      This placement of Sibyl de Valoines is sound if unproven.  We
> > > certainly know Philip de Valoines (d. 1215) had a daughter Sibyl,
> > > called 'Sibille filie mee' in his charter granting Torpenhow to her
> > > and her husband Robert de Stuteville [Reg. de Panmure II:124].  Bssed
> > > on the witnesses, this charter can be dated ca 1195 x 7 Aug 1205.
> > > Eustace de Stuteville (dsp bef 18 Oct 1241) was Sibyl's son and heir.
>
> > >      There was another Valoines sibling: Cecily, wife of Henry de
> > > Essex, sheriff of Essex (d. 1163 or later), by whom she was the
> > > ancestress of the de Vere Earls of Oxford &c.  Cecily's daughter
> > > Gunnora de Essex was evidently called 'neptis mee' or similar in a
> > > charter of Agnes de Valoines, interpreted as niece until Rosie Bevan
> > > corrected this in 2003  [R. Bevan, <Re: Essex/Valognes/Fitz John>,
> > > SGM, 18 Apr 2003].
>
> > >      Cheers,
>
> > >                                 John
>
> > Hi John,
>
> > Thanks for that. Whilst we are on this subject, perhaps you could
> > answer another query concerning this family. Peter de Valoigns, eldest
> > son of Roger de Valognes and Agatha fitz John married a Gundred de
> > Warenne. Peter died before 1160 when his brother Robert paid 200 marcs
> > for his relief (PRS, ii, p. 11). Did his widow marry secondly William
> > de Courcy III? The chronology seems ok, because William de Courcy IV,
> > son and heir of William III was 20 years old in 1185 (Rot. Dominabus,
> > p. 73) so born about 1165.
>
> > Regards,
>
> > John- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> ------------------
>
> Dear John,
>
>      You have it as I do at present.  Gundreda, daughter of Reginald
> de Warenne of Wormegay, Norfolk (d. aft 1178) and his wife Alice de
> Wormegay m. (1) Peter (or Piers) de Valoins of Bennington, co. Herts.
> (dsp 1158 acc. to Sanders), and (2) William de Curci (or Courcy).
>
>      Gundreda had one child who had issue: Alice de Curci (dvm before
> 6 Dec 1224), who m. (1) Henry de Cornhill, and (2) Warin fitz Gerold.
> Gundreda's heirs were her granddaughters, Joan de Cornhill (wife of
> Hugh de Neville of Little Hallingbury, Essex) and (2) Margaret 'filia
> Warini', wife of (1) Baldwin de Reviers (dvp 1216) and (2) Fulk de
> Breaute.
>
>      I attach for your reference the translation from the Fine Rolls
> of the order of 6 Dec 1224 as to the partition of Gundreda's dower
> lands between her granddaughters [1].
>
>      By the bye, the Warenne-Valoines marriage has an interesting
> Anglo-Scots tint to it.  There was a later Reginald de Warenne holding
> lands in Fife, whose ancestry is yet to be resolved.  Perhaps holding
> the interest of a wider audience, Gundreda allegedly had a sister Ela
> (or similar) held by many to have been the 'nepta' of King Malcolm IV
> married to Duncan, Earl of Fife (d. aft 17 Jun 1203).
>
>      Cheers,
>
>                                  John
>
> Notes
>
>  [1] CFR 9 Hen III, C 60/22, mem. 5 :
>
> ' 27   6 Dec. Westminster. Oxfordshire. Order to the sheriff of
> Oxfordshire to take into the king’s hand the vill of Newnham that
> Gundrea de Warenne held in dower, which is an inheritance partible
> between Joan, wife of Hugh de Neville, and Margaret, wife of Falkes de
> Bréauté, and he is to keep it safely until it will have been shared
> between them by order of the king, saving to the executors of the
> testament of the same Gundrea the chattels that she had there in order
> to execute her reasonable testament. Witness R. bishop of Salisbury.
>
> 28   Suffolk. It is written in the same manner to the sheriff of
> Suffolk, concerning the vill of Fageham which she held in maritagium,
> and which is an inheritance partible between the aforesaid.
>
> 29   Middlesex. It is written in the same manner to the sheriff of
> Middlesex, concerning the land which she had in Halliwick, which is an
> inheritance partible between the aforesaid. '
>
> http://www.frh3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_022.html

Hi John,

For completeness:
Gundred had a third husband, Geoffrey Hose, who was dead before July
1199, when Gundred gave 200 marcs to have the wardship of Geoffrey her
son and heir with his land until he reached full age (Rot de Oblatis,
p. 8). Presumably Geoffrey the son died without heirs before December
1224.

Alice de Courcy died about 1220, when there is a case in the Curia
Regis: Hugh de Neville and Joan his wife claimed half of the manors of
Stoke Curcy and Wutton and part of Radeweye in Somerset against Fawkes
de Bréauté and Margaret his wife. The pleadings show that Joan and
Margaret were the daughters of Alice de Courcy, who had recently died
and that Alice had been married to Warin fitz Gerold (Curia Regis
Rolls, Vol. 9, pp. 347-8).

Regards,

John


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