GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2011-01 > 1294213696
From: John Watson <>
Subject: Re: Sibyl de Valoignes
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 23:48:16 -0800 (PST)
On Jan 5, 1:17 pm, "Peter Stewart" <> wrote:
> "John Watson" <> wrote in message
> > On Jan 5, 3:53 am, "John P. Ravilious" <> wrote:
> > >, Gundreda allegedly had a sister Ela (or similar) held by many
> > > to have been the 'nepta' of King Malcolm IV married to
> > > Duncan, Earl of Fife (d. aft 17 Jun 1203).
> > Hi John,
> > Now you have me completely puzzled. If Ela was the 'nepta' or niece
> > of King Malcolm IV, then she was not the daughter of Reginald de
> > Warenne and Alice de Wormegay. As Malcolm was the son of Henry
> > of Scotland and Ada de Warenne, it seems more likely to me that one
> > of their offspring used the Warenne family name.
> The suggestion is that 'neptis' in Malcolm IV's charter meant a younger
> cousin rather than a niece - see 'The Earls of Fife in the 12th Century' by
> Geoffrey Barrow athttp://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/PSAS_2002/pdf/vol_087/87_051_...,
> pp. 53-54.
> Peter Stewart
Thanks for that - very interesting. I looked at some of Barrow's
references in the Cartulary of St. Andrew's Priory and there certainly
seems to be a relationship between Ada de Warenne and Ela or Hela,
countess of Fife. In one case they are both witnesses to a charter and
in another Hela witnesses one of Ada's charters. The only problem
seems to be that the actual charter where Malcolm IV calls Ela (or
Ada) his "neptis" is of dubious provenance.