GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2011-05 > 1306447179
From: Derek Howard <>
Subject: Re: Alice Nevill
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 14:59:39 -0700 (PDT)
On May 26, 8:13 pm, "TJ Booth_aol" <> wrote:
> Do not recall if this was noted before, but Tong's 1530 visitation has an
> entry for Cuthbert p.26http://books.google.com/books?id=2KUwAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA26as well as the
> Tunstall pedigree p. 95 I recall being mentioned by John Higgins (which
> identifies no wife for Sir Thomas). Significantly, Cuthbert was alive in
> 1530. The entry for Cuthbert and related footnotes are revealing, suggesting
> the 'Conier's dau' story was of early origin and tied to the English
> antiquary Leland [1503-1552 and thus a contemporary of Cuthbert] - given its
> date, it likely deserves some sort of precedence over later statements.
> Perhaps one of the heraldry scholars in this newsgroup can find significance
> in the impalement, although I shudder to think if it instead adds yet
> another family to the mix.
> "CUTHBERT THUNSTALL, BYSSHOP OF DURESME. ARMS. Azure, a cross patonce or,
> between four lions rampant argent. IMPALEMENT. Azure, three combs argent.
> These be the armes of the Reuerend father in God CUTHBERT THUNSTALL,
> BYSSHOP OF DURESME, President of the Counsaill from the Trente northwarde
>  to our Souverain Lord Kyng Henri the viijth.
>  The impalement of his personal coat has a difference of tincture, the
> main line of Tunstal bearing the field sable. He used cocks as his
> supporters or badges, as did others of his race. Leland says he was born at
> Hackforth, in Richmondshire, and was "base sunne to Tunstal, as I hard, by
> one of the Coniers' daughters." The badge of Conyers of Hornby was a dipped
> trefoil, and it perhaps deserves attention that on the castle of Durham the
> weather-moulding round his arms is decorated with single trefoil leaves on
> stalks, but not on the running stalk common to Perpendicular work. He is
> omitted in the pedigree of Tunstal, in this Visitation, which is another
> strong support of the general truth of Leland's story. The coat given for
> the see is that called the arms of St. Cuthbert, in distinction to those of
> St. Oswald.
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
The Tunstall family arms were given in a great many records, including
the Garter stall plate of Sir Richard Tunstal KG, as 'Sable three
cocks Argent' ("Dictionary of British Arms, Medieval Ordinary", v3, ed
Woodcock and Flower, 2009, 77).
_If_ the personal (sinister) arms in Cuthbert Tunstall’s impalement
with the arms of the bishopric of Durham were indeed 'Azure three
combs Argent' then this could reflect the previous illegitimacy as
heraldically he would not have inherited his father’s arms.
However, DBA informs us that not only do untinctured sculpture
(outside the upper part of the east oriel window at Bishop Aukland
Castle) and seal evidence (as Bishop of London 1522-30 (Birch 1936)
and as Bishop of Durham (Durham seals)) exist but also ms with
tinctured evidence. This includes Bishop of Durham, in College of Arms
ms D4 29, and as Bishop of London, in College of Arms ms L10 73,9 -
showing that the bishop in fact used 'Sable three cocks Argent' for
his personal arms.
CoA L10 is said in DBA to date to c.1520, while CoA D4 is the Thomas
Tong Visitation of the North of 1530 [sic. in DBA, though Wagner dates
the first entry to 1550]. Indeed D4 is Tong’s own general book of
record (Wagner: "The Records and Collections of the College of Arms",
77-78). This seems to indicate that a published visitation text may
(yet again) be in error in assigning Azure instead of Sable.
|Re: Alice Nevill by Derek Howard <>|