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From: lostcopper <>
Subject: Re: C.P. Addition: New death date for Isabel de Vermandois, Countessof Meulan and Leicester
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:32:43 -0700 (PDT)
References: <665dc40b-dc08-4f61-9220-c12f8fc46ecb@q35g2000prh.googlegroups.com>


On Oct 24, 11:15 am, Douglas Richardson <> wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> There are good accounts of Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Vermandois, the Ur-
> Mother of the newsgroup, in Complete Peerage, 7 (1929): 523-526 (sub
> Leicester) and 12(1) (1953): 495-496 (sub Surrey).  Isabel was
> successively wife of Robert de Beaumont, Count of Meulan in the French
> Vexin (died 5 June 1118), and William de Warenne, 2nd Earl of Surrey
> (died probably 11 May 1138).  She had issue by both of her marriages.
> Her descendants are legion.
>
> In the Leicester account in C.P., pg. 526, footnote d, the following
> information is given regarding the death date of Isabel de Vermandois:
>
> "Her obit was observed at St. Nicaise-de-Meulan on 17 Feb, (H.F.,
> Quarto, Obituaires de la Prov. de Sens, vol. iii, p. 238 E.)."  END OF
> QUOTE.
>
> In the Surrey account in C.P., pg. 496, and footnote h, the following
> information is given regarding her death date:
>
> "She died probably before July 1147 .... [She died] before her son,
> William [de Warenne], 3rd Earl [of Surrey], went on crusade in June
> 1147; see Early Yorkshire Charters, vol. viii, pp. 9, 91.  On 17 Feb.,
> according to the obituary of St, Nicaise (Recueil des Chartes de Saint-
> Nicaise-de-Meulan, ed. Houth, p. 192).  END OF QUOTE.
>
> The obit for Countess Isabel recorded at the Priory of Saint-Nicaise
> de Meulan is confirmed by Molinier, Obituaires de la Province de Sens,
> 2 (1906): 238, which gives the following:
>
>    Obituaire of Prieuré de Saint-Nicaise de Meulan
>
>    Isabel, comitissa Mellenti, XIIIo kal. Martii [17 February].  END
> OF QUOTE.
>
> The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
>    http://books.google.com/books?id=TvUoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA238
>
> Recently, however, I encountered yet another obit for Isabel de
> Vermandois dated 13 February recorded in the obituaire of Longpont
> Priory, which item was published in Molinier, Obituaires de la
> Province de Sens 1(1) (Recueil des Historiens de la France, Obituaires
> 1) (1902): 521:
>
>    Prieuré de Longpont
>
>    “idus Februarius [13 February] [obit.] Isabel, comitissa de Garenna
> [1199].  END OF QUOTE..
>
> The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
>    http://books.google.com/books?id=agMjAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA521
>
> The modern editor, Molinier, has assigned a death date of 1199 for
> Isabel, Countess of Warenne, which is a manifest error.  The only
> other Isabel, Count of Warenne, in this time period was Isabel de
> Vermandois' own granddaughter, Isabel de Warrenne, who was living
> April 1203, but probably died soon afterwards, possibly 12 July 1203
> [see Complete Peerage, 12(1) (1953): 500 (sub Surrey)].
>
> That the obit for Isabel, Countess of Warenne, dated 13 February at
> Longpont Priory is in fact for Isabel de Vermandois (and not that of
> her granddaughter) is confirmed by the inclusion of another obit in
> the same obituary at Longpont Priory for Isabel de Vermandois' second
> husband, William de Warenne:
>
> Source: Molinier, Obituaires de la Province de Sens 1(1) (Recueil des
> Historiens de la France, Obituaires 1) (1902): 524:
>
> Prieuré de Longpont:
>
>    v. idus. Maius. [11 May] [obit.] Guillermus, comes de Garenna.  END
> OF QUOTE.
>
> The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
>    http://books.google.com/books?id=agMjAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA524
>
> I'm not certain why this second obit for Isabel de Vermandois was
> overlooked by Complete Peerage, but it evidently has been previously
> noticed.  I found the following statement in Walker, Wakefield: Its
> History and People (1934): 52:
>
> “Countess Isabel died February 13th, 1131, and the Earl followed her
> seven years later, on May 11th, 1138.  Both were buried in the chapter
> house of Lewes priory.”).   END OF QUOTE.
>
> Wakefield and other sources give 1131 as the death year for Isabel de
> Vermandois which date may be correct.  Whatever the year, it would
> appear that Isabel de Vermandois died on 13 (or 17) February, as
> indicated by the records cited above.
>
> Perhaps someone on the newsgroup can address the evidence which
> indicates the year, 1131, as the year of death for Isabel de
> Vermandois.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

I seem to have multiple descents through son William (Percy, Neville,
Stafford), daughter Ada (Brittany, Bohun, Orkney, Galloway, Bruce,
Hastings, Crawford, &, of course, your William the Lion (Ferrers, Ros,
Dunbar), daughter Gundred & two husbands (Beaumont, Verdun, Mauduit,
Lancaster, Lea, Morville, Bruce, Lindsay), son Reginald (Bardolf), and
daughter Isabel (Fitzroy-Chilham, Strathbougle, Balliol, Marmion,
Berkeley, Eu, Lusignan, Bohun). I do my work the old-fashioned way, by
hand. Since I don't have software for it, I will prowl through these
lines to find as many 17th century descents as I can & send them on.
Best, Bronwen


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