Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2011-10 > 1319780560

From: "James C. Woodard" <>
Subject: Re: More on the Ur Mother: Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Vermandois
Date: 28 Oct 2011 05:42:40 GMT
References: <><>

Douglas Richardson <> wrote in news:f8c67121-8dae-

> Dear Newsgroup ~
> As a followup to my post earlier today, I now have a few bits of
> information to add regarding the death date of Isabel (or Elizabeth)
> de Vermandois, Countess of Meulan and Surrey.
> There is an ancient list of the various Earls and Countesses of Surrey
> (or Warenne) which is found in the Chartulary of Lewes Priory. A copy
> of this list was published in 1934 in L.F. Salzman, editor, The
> Chartulary of the Priory of St. Pancras of Lewes, Pt. 2 (Sussex Record
> Society 40) (1934), pp. 15-19. The list has no date but from the
> internal evidence was created sometime shortly after 1439. The earls
> and countesses are list in their respective order and death dates are
> provided for all of them.
> Regarding Isabel de Vermandois, the following information is provided:
> "Lady Isabel the second Countess of Surrey wife of William the second
> died 13 February 1131 and the 7th year before her husband. And she
> lies [blank]." END OF QUOTE
> This list is obviously the source of the statement in Walker,
> Wakefield: Its History and People (1934): 52 that Countess Isabel
> "died February 13th, 1131, and the Earl followed her seven years
> later, on May 11th, 1138." Walker had apparently not seen the French
> obit dated 13 February for Countess Isabel as I earlier thought. The
> information from the list was ignored by Complete Peerage in its
> Surrey account.
> Following the publication of the list of Earls and Countesses found in
> the Lewes Priory Chartulary, the matter of the death date of Isabel de
> Vermandois was considered by Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters, 8 (1949):
> 9. He provides the following information:
> "She [Isabel] survived her second husband, William de Warenne; and
> after his death, with the consent of her son the third earl, [she]
> gave the church of Dorking to Lewes Priory. The terms of a charter
> issued by the third earl suggest that she died in his lifetime." END
> Mr. Clay adds more information in footnote 9 on the same page:
> "In one of the narrative accounts in the same [i.e., Lewes Chartulary]
> it is stated that she [Isabel] died 13 Feb. 1131 in the seventh year
> before her husband. More trustworthy evidence from another source
> shows that her obit was observed on 17 Feb. (Complete Peerage, new
> ed., vii, 526n); and the year 1131 is clearly wrong."
> While Clay was obviously aware of the list of Earls and Countesses in
> the Lewes Chartulary which stated that Countess Isabel died 13 Feb.
> 1131, he believed a "more trustworthy" date for Countess Isabel's
> death was 17 February. In so doing, he relied on the limited
> information found in Complete Peerage. As we have already seen,
> Complete Peerage missed the obit for Countess Isabel in the obituaire
> of the Prieur of Longpont which gave the same date, 13 February, for
> the Countess' death as the Lewes Chartulary list.
> Clay's comment aside, the date of 13 February would have to be
> considered more trustworthy as this date is provided by BOTH the Lewes
> Chartulary and the obit from the Prieur of Longpont. The alternative
> date of 17 February should still be treated as possible, however.
> Insofar as the death year of Countess Isabel is concerned, Mr. Clay is
> correct that the year 1131 is clearly wrong. There is a charter which
> proves that Countess Isabel survived her 2nd husband, William de
> Warenne, 2nd Earl of Surrey. This charter was published in Salzman,
> ed., The Chartulary of the Priory of St. Pancras of Lewes, Part 1
> (Sussex Record Society 38) (1932): 29. This charter is dated c.1138
> and was issued by Countess Isabel and her son, William de Warenne, 3rd
> Earl of Surrey. It reads as follows:
> "I William Earl Warenn' have given and granted to the monks of St.
> Pancras three hides of land in Kyngeston for the soul of my father for
> the performance of his anniversary. And I Countess Isabel his mother,
> with the consent of my son the Earl, have given them the church of
> Doreking' with all its appurtenances for the soul of my lord the
> Earl. And moreover I have given and granted to them the tithe of the
> revenues (denariorum) of the same manor. Of this gift are witnesses,
> &c." END OF QUOTE.
> In conclusion, it appears that Isabel de Vermandois was living c.1138,
> and that she died 13 (or 17) February, sometime before June 1147, when
> her son, William, 3rd Earl, left on crusade.
> Do you descend from Isabel de Vermandois? If so I'd appreciate
> hearing from you here on the newsgroup. If possible, please post your
> line of descent from Countess Isabel here on the newsgroup.
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

If one does not accept as proven the Henry Dudley-Captain Roger Dudley
connection, all of the descents I have found for myself are through a
single woman, Susanna Thorne, mother of Gov. Thomas Dudley. I am sure I
don't need to list one or any of those for you, as I'm certain you are
familiar with them all.

James C. Woodard
"Too many laws make scofflaws of all"

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