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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2011-11 > 1321395305


From: Wjhonson <>
Subject: Re: Royal ancestry of the Redgraves
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:15:05 -0500 (EST)
References: <0bf68183-21e4-419d-8a1d-0f7feb73fb56@p9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com><8CE708CED051FE3-2BC4-60299@webmail-m136.sysops.aol.com><8CE708F2C461B4D-2BC4-6062B@webmail-m136.sysops.aol.com><8CE70936B6F77D6-2BC4-60CBF@webmail-m136.sysops.aol.com><8CE7094AF41E266-2BC4-60EC6@webmail-m136.sysops.aol.com><8CE70960FBB3099-2BC4-61135@webmail-m136.sysops.aol.com><8CE7098C16934D5-2BC4-6157D@webmail-m136.sysops.aol.com><mailman.21.1321256304.23759.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com><mailman.1.1321283727.10677.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com><7558ef56-2f47-42f3-820f-bdb5082a8275@k10g2000yqn.googlegroups.com><72e00fb8-aa2f-4f3a-8c2a-e45300b0a393@e3g2000vbs.googlegroups.com><1bb16d42-7cae-4fd1-9f38-c337f6832536@d17g2000yql.googlegroups.com><99e2aed9-d595-4cc5-9a1a-381b25f22dca@u10g2000prl.googlegroups.com><5032fe1d-d6e5-4917-9301-65c0f6dea699@u10g2000prl.googlegroups.com><0c49adb5-3eb8-4f6a-9c3a-61a11d33c892@p7g2000pre.googlegroups.com><8CE716E08C49603-2BC4-810C7@webmail-m136.sysops.aol.com> <8CE7170C3706FA6-2BC4-81518@webmail-m136.sysops.aol.com><8CE7177009D04FF-2BC4-8205A@webmail-m136.sysops.aol.com><8CE71E6741F96A9-1860-9BB94@webmail-m162.sysops.aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <8CE71E6741F96A9-1860-9BB94@webmail-m162.sysops.aol.com>


Anne the first wife of Thomas was the daughter of Sir Charles Ceasar by his wife Anne Vanlore

http://books.google.com/books?id=m1xIAAAAYAAJ&dq=anne%20ceasar%20levinston&pg=PA296#v=onepage&q&f=false





-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <>
To: wjhonson <>; jhigginsgen <>; gen-medieval <>
Sent: Tue, Nov 15, 2011 11:46 am
Subject: Re: Royal ancestry of the Redgraves


This Thomas and Anna were evidently some seriously mischieveous creatures.
I've encountered a small stumbling block of material that will take me a few days to digest probably.
But it greatly enhances our ability to finally (after four hundred years) solve the issue of who Joyce exactly was.



-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <>
To: wjhonson <>; jhigginsgen <>; gen-medieval <>
Sent: Mon, Nov 14, 2011 10:29 pm
Subject: Re: Royal ancestry of the Redgraves


I found Anna, the wife of Thomas whose deed Joyce used even though she knew it was false.... or something

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=005-dx702800&cid=52-1&kw=tidmarsh#52-1









-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <>
To: wjhonson <>; jhigginsgen <>; gen-medieval <>
Sent: Mon, Nov 14, 2011 9:44 pm
Subject: Re: Royal ancestry of the Redgraves


I'd say Joyce must be at Tidmarsh because of her Livingstone dead husband? Right?

http://books.google.com/books?id=Z8YHAAAAQAAJ&dq=tidmarsh%20berks%20goddard&pg=PA30#v=onepage&q&f=true







-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <>
To: jhigginsgen <>; gen-medieval <>
Sent: Mon, Nov 14, 2011 9:25 pm
Subject: Re: Royal ancestry of the Redgraves




http://books.google.com/books?id=PzPfIuEk4LoC&dq=edmund%20buckeridge&pg=PA8#v=onepage&q=edmund%20buckeridge&f=true


-----Original Message-----
rom: John <>
o: gen-medieval <>
ent: Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:05 pm
ubject: Re: Royal ancestry of the Redgraves

n Nov 14, 2:30 pm, John <> wrote:
On Nov 14, 1:20 pm, John <> wrote:









> On Nov 14, 7:33 am, Johnny Brananas <> wrote:

> > Francis Fortescue was the second son of Sir Nicholas Fortescue of
> > Cookhill, Worcestershire, Chamberlain of the Exchequer.

> >http://books.google.com/books?id=OaxCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA317&dq=%22francis+...

> A version of Lord Clermont's history of the Fortescues, referenced in
> this link to "Chester of Chicheley", is on-line at the BYU library
> website. Although it may not be exactly the version cited by Chester
> Waters, it has a fair amount of information about Sir Nicholas
> Fortescue, Chamberlain of the Exchequer, and his ancestry. But it has
> very little about his son Francis, mentioning only his first wife
> Frances Peyton but not his second wife Joyce. There are royal lines
> behind the 1st wife Frances Peyton.

> Vivian's edition of the visitations of Devon also has information on
> the earlier Fortescues in this line, but it stops with the grandfather
> of Sir Nicholas, another Nicholas who was groom to Henry VIII.

Looking more closely at both Lord Clermont's history of the Fortescues
and the account of Francis Fortescue in Chester Waters' "Chester of
Chicheley" suggests that there may be problems with the identification
of Francis the son of Sir Nicholas the Chamberlain of the Exchequer
and husband of Alice Peyton as the same Francis who married Joyce NN
and was father of Catherine Fortescue. And there may be another
Francis Fortescue who is perhaps the one who married Joyce.

Catherine Fortescue was said earlier in this thread to have been born
ca. 1665 (aged 26 at her 1st marriage in 1691, and her 2nd husband
Thomas carpenter was also born in 1665). Francis the son of Sir
Nicholas the Chamberlain was probably born ca. 1605 (his next elder
brother William d. Jan 1619 aged 46) and Francis himself was admitted
to Inner Temple 1616 (seems pretty young for that). He also had a son
Nicholas born in 1639 (see Chester Waters). So Francis would have
been around 60 when Catherine was born in 1665 - possible, but
something of s stretch. And Lord Clermont gives Frances only one
wife, not two.

Francis son of Sir Nicholas also had a cousin Francis, son of John,
younger brother of Sir Nicholas. Even less information is given about
this second Francis by Lord Clermont, except that he married (wife not
named) and had a son Francis (a Catholic priest) and two daughters
(not including Catherine).

Chester Waters seems to be the only source so far identified that says
that Francis Fortescue married both Alice Peyton and Joyce NN. I
wonder if he may possibly have conflated two Francis Fortescues into
one. Unfortumately neither Lord Clermont nor Chester Waters provides
particuarly good sources.
And here are two more Francis Fortescues to add to the puzzle;
ttp://books.google.com/books?id=ECoEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA57
Francis Fortescue who married Frances Peyton apparently had an elder
on Francis, and Francis' elder brother William also had a son
rancis. If either of these Francises lived to adulthood and married,
hey would be chronologically more likely to be the father of our
atherine Fortescue.

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