GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2011-11 > 1321477816


From: ". ." <>
Subject: Valentine Hill / John Hill
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 13:10:16 -0800
References: <mailman.300.1321456888.5031.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
In-Reply-To: <mailman.300.1321456888.5031.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>


Dear List,

I will try as time permits to address some of your questions and add a few of my own. One great thing I have found about sharing with others of like mind is that they will open your mind to other paths if you have hit a brick wall and these paths may just cause you to readdress ALL research you have done in the past, as in my case. I will start from the beginning. My Warner line starts with William Warner who as noted in the N.E Register, 1866. lived in Bowsted Essex England. where his children were born and came to America in 1637. My Grand father on my mothers side owned a rare book store in Ca. called Liberty Books. In that store was a section of books on my family along with letters and some deeds. When my Grandfather passed away I was told to gather up a set amount of books , etc. that I wished to have as my inheritance. One book was about William Warner and his line. After researching for several years I gave up on finding the line for V. Hill and his brother John who was married to Sarah, and has a daughter named Sarah, and who wrote a will in 14 December, 1665,and said will was proved 8 February, 1687. I opened that "William Warner" book and found under V. Hill was a notation that his coat of arms was "Ermine in chief a lion." Now I don't allow notations in books that have no source to hold much water. but being at my wits end I opened a few of my books and found a Hill family that lived in Lincoln, London and Norfolk that used this coat of arms, but just a bit more refined.

But, The London Visitation Pedigrees of 1664, page 77 had a pedigree of a John Hill, of London, Fishmonger, that had the same coat of arms and who was dead by 1678, and who was married to a person named Sarah, and has a daughter named sarah, but alas no other offspring were noted in this pedigree. This child named Sarah was married to Henry Wyatt of Shackleford, Co. Surry. Here is the pedigree in its entirety:

HILL
Arms: Gu. 2 bars Ermine, in chief a lion Pass. per pale Or and Ar.
For earlier gen see V~ of Norfolk, 1613, Harl. Soc. P. 154

John Hill of Hales, Co. Norfolk = Alice da. of Jermyn Burrough of Norfolk, 1st wife.
William Hill of hales = Katherine, da of Edmond Davy of Westhall, Co. Suffolk; Bapt. 1584
Children:
1] William Hill ( see V` of Norfolk, 1664)
2] John Hill of London, Fishmonger 1664, of St. Magnus about 40 in 1662/3, dead in 1678. (Q:1687?? see will of John Hill)
=Sarah da. of Remington of London; Mar Lic 27 feb 1662/3 about 30 Widow,2nd husband = ?? Lewington 1 husband = Sir. Richard How Citizen and woodmonger translated to fishmongers 1677, prime warden 1680, alderman 1668, sheriff 1678, Mp southwark; died sept or o0ct 1683, 3rd husband.
3] [from the marriage of John Hill and Sarah , da of Remington and widow of Lewingston being her first husband,
Sarah Hill = Henry Wyatt of Shackleford, Co. Surrey.

Then, last night, after reading some of your comments, I find this little nugget that if proven true, blows my research out of the water:


"Daughters of the American Revolution Lineage Book", Vol. C 11:

Valentine's youngest son, Nathaniel, was the only heir to survive the lengthy legal entanglement of the Hill estate. In 1797 he renounced his ownership of the 500 acre farm that his father had left him in order to clear the estate. He had married Sarah Nutter in about 1680 and they had five children (Valentine, Samuel, Sarah, Abigail and Mary). Captain Nathaniel Hill was a deacon in the church at Oyster River and was prominent as an official of the town of Durham as well. Nathaniel died in Durham in 1741 and was said to have "lost his reason" during the finalmonths of his long life.
Time line:
1610 (Abt.) Valentine Hill Born Lincolnshire, England
1636 (Abt.) Valentine Hill Arrives Colonies Boston, Massachusetts
1649 Valentine Hill Moves to Oyster River Durham, New Hampshire,
etc. etc.

Valentine Hill was born on March 23, 1611 in Winthorpe Parish,Lincolnshire, England. He was the fifth child of William and Elizabeth Hill who married about 1600. Valentines father, William, was the son of Thomas Hill (born abt. 1550) and his wife Ann. Valentine Hill's brothers were William, Christopher, Thomas and John. His sisters were Ann,Elizabeth and Mary. Socially, the family were "Gentry" or "Squires" and were listed in "Lincolnshire Gentry" in 1625.
**

But, I also find:

Warwickshire County Record Office: Messrs. Heath and Blenkinsop
MESSRS. HEATH AND BLENKINSOP
Catalogue Ref. CR 611
Creator(s):
Heath and Blenkinsop of Warwickshire, solicitors
CLIENTS' DEEDS AND PAPERS: LARGER ACCUMULATIONS
ANCASTER PAPERS
Property in Winthorpe
FILE - Conveyance of a messuage and 28 acres for £300 from Valentine Hill of Alford, mercer, and Matthias Whitinge of Croft, yeoman, to Thomas May of Keddington, yeoman - ref. CR 611/898/1 - date: 24 April 1633
***
James Savage, Genealogical Dictionary of the First Settlers of New England
VALENTINE, Boston 1636, a mercer from London, I think, ar. co. 1638, freem. 13 May 1640, and on Sunday foll. was, with Jacob Eliot, ord. deae. by w. Frances, wh. d. 17 Feb. 1646, had Hannah, bapt. 17 Mar. 1639; John, b. 1 Sept. 1640, d. soon; Eliz. 12, bapt. 19 Dec. 1641, d. young; Joseph, and Benjamin, tw. 19, bapt. 23 June 1644, both d. soon; by sec. w. Mary, d. of Gov. Eaton, adm. of our ch. 15 May 1647, he had John, bapt. 22 Aug. 1647; and Nathaniel, b. 31 Mar. 1660. He was of great public spirit, grantee in 1641, with others, of the town, or Bendall's dock, and the week foll. was made a selectman, rechos. 1642, 3, 4, 5 and 6; interest in the Ids. at Dover, and prob. liv. some time there, was rep. 1652-5 and 7, and d. 1662. His wid. m. perhaps John Lovering of Dover, and next, Ezekiel Knight of Wells. Hannah m. 24 Jan. 1660, Antipas Boyce.
***
Genealogical Dictionary of Maine and New Hampshire, Sybil Noyes, Charles Thornton Libby, and Walter Goodwin Davis Portland, ME 1928-1939; Reprint, Baltimore, MD, Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc. Page: p. 330
Valentine Hill moved from London, where he and his brother John were merchants, to Boston in early 1636. During 1636-1649, Valentine acquired a good deal of land in central Boston including land along the waterfront which is close to the area which presently occupies Fanuel Hall and Quincy Market. In 1641, he was elected as one of the "Selectmen" for Boston, the equivalent of a modern-day city council. His main business appears to have been as a trader -- exporting and importing products such as tobacco, indian corn, sugar, cattle, etc.


So as you can see I shall start at sqr one, again, but NOW I have other leads to follow thanks to all of you and for that FACT, you have my thanks! THANK YOU!!

Michael Warner




"Ihr Racke, wollen sie ewig leben?" -Frederick the Great, 1712 - 1786

From:
Subject: GEN-MEDIEVAL Digest, Vol 6, Issue 636
To:
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 08:21:28 -0700



--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From:
To:
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 01:15:51 -0800
Subject: Re: Valentine Hill

This is probably just muddying the waters, but I wonder if John Hill,
b. 31 Dec 1587 at Winthorpe, son of Thomas Hill - and so a possible
younger brother of William Hill m. Margaret Bylney - could be the John
Hill who left England circa 1630, was a Freeman of Boston in 1642,
received a grant of land at Oyster River in that same year; and died
circa 1647, after which his son John Hill (b. abt 1624) paid tax for
that land in 1650 and 1657.

There have been previous attempts to argue that this younger John Hill
was a brother of Valentine Hill of Oyster River (groundlessly, in
light of the 1665 will mentioned above). If this proposed relationship
could be proven, then John Hill the younger would in fact have been a
first cousin of Valentine Hill.

Matthew Hovious

http://matthewhovious.blogspot.com


On Nov 16, 12:45 am, Johnny Brananas <> wrote:





--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From:
To:
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 04:23:44 -0800
Subject: Re: Valentine Hill

On Nov 15, 10:49 pm, Nathaniel Taylor <> wrote:
> NB, a Faith Hill was also baptised there in 1633, dau. Wm & Mary; she
> married there, in 1654, Thomas Longbottom. It doesn't get any better
> than that.

No doubt the same couple referenced in this record pulled from A2A:
Winthorpe and Mumby 2 SIB/1/5 19 Oct 1669 These documents are
held at Lincolnshire Archives
Contents:
Release: Thomas Longbotham of East Butterwick, gent., and Faith his
wife, sole daughter and heir of William Hill, to Gervas Sibthorp of
Lincoln, gent.
Consideration: £900.
Property: messuage and 6 closes containing 18 acres, messuage and
17a., messuage and 3 roods, (all in Winthorpe), close of pasture cont.
5a. in Mumby, 14a. pasture and 1a. arable in Winthorpe near the sea-
bank.




--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From:
To:
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 04:30:50 -0800
Subject: Re: Hill , Bylney Connection

Another relevant record pulled from A2A...
Croft MON 1/4/7 1532-1635 These documents are held at Lincolnshire
Archives
4 items
Copies information: Transcript in M.C.D. 246/9

Contents:
Title of Hill to various small pieces of land at Croft (as in MON
1/5-1/6) Beche to Ranson, Ranson and Grey to Hill (of Winthorpe).
The last deed in this series is a quit claim of interest.
5½ acres of land in Croft. Edward Hutchinson, draper, son of the late
Edward Hutchinson, mercer, of Alford, and Sarah, his wife, daughter of
William Hill of Saleby, yeoman, to William Hill.
(Edward and Sarah, now of Boston in the parts of America called New
England).
Sealed and delivered at Boston, Massachusetts in the presence of John
Cotton, William Hutchinson and Richard Hasellde.

On Nov 15, 9:25 pm, Johnny Brananas <> wrote:
> Because his brother John Hill's will of 1665 mentions "tenements in
> Winthorpe and Croft and elsewhere in Lincolnshire," isn't it more
> likely that Valentine is the child found in IGI batch C054882 --
> Valentine Hill, son of William and Elizabeth, bapt. 23 March 1610,
> Winthorpe, Lincolnshire?




--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From:
To: ;
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 07:37:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Valentine Hill

At 1:15 AM -0800 11/16/11, wrote:
>This is probably just muddying the waters, but I wonder if John Hill,
>b. 31 Dec 1587 at Winthorpe, son of Thomas Hill - and so a possible
>younger brother of William Hill m. Margaret Bylney - could be the John
>Hill who left England circa 1630, was a Freeman of Boston in 1642,
>received a grant of land at Oyster River in that same year; and died
>circa 1647, after which his son John Hill (b. abt 1624) paid tax for
>that land in 1650 and 1657.
>
>There have been previous attempts to argue that this younger John Hill
>was a brother of Valentine Hill of Oyster River (groundlessly, in
>light of the 1665 will mentioned above). If this proposed relationship
>could be proven, then John Hill the younger would in fact have been a
>first cousin of Valentine Hill.
>
>Matthew Hovious

Well, now I'm scratching my head too. GDMNH lists the John b. c.
1624 and mentions his possible Boston father John d. 1647 but doesn't
mention a 1642 Oyster River grant to the latter.

Just noticed my children are descended from an early 18th-century
Hill in Oyster River area (Durham), of unknown parentage, so
therefore likely descend either from Valentine or John, the two Hill
ur-fathers in that area.

Does anyone have the 1664 London visitation pedigrees volume that
according to the original poster may have something on the London
merchant John Hill? Does this connect him to any specific kin either
in Lincolnshire or in Norfolk?

Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://nltaylor.net/sketchbook/



--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From:
To: ;
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 07:53:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Valentine Hill

At 4:23 AM -0800 11/16/11, Matthew Hovious wrote:
>On Nov 15, 10:49 pm, Nathaniel Taylor <> wrote:
>> NB, a Faith Hill was also baptised there in 1633, dau. Wm & Mary; she
>> married there, in 1654, Thomas Longbottom. It doesn't get any better
>> than that.
>
>No doubt the same couple referenced in this record pulled from A2A:
>Winthorpe and Mumby 2 SIB/1/5 19 Oct 1669 These documents are
>held at Lincolnshire Archives
>Contents:
>Release: Thomas Longbotham of East Butterwick, gent., and Faith his
>wife, sole daughter and heir of William Hill

Hence she wasn't half-sister of the merchant brothers by a later
marriage. But really, I just liked the names.

Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://nltaylor.net/sketchbook/



--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From:
To:
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 06:55:42 -0800
Subject: Re: Hill , Bylney Connection

On Nov 15, 12:34 am, ". ." <> wrote:
> Hello List,
>
> I have been researching my Hill line, ie:
>
> [...up to me....M.D. Warner]
>
> my 6th GGfather: Daniel Warner = Sarah Hill
> my 7th GGfather: Capt. Nathaniel Hill = Sarah Nutter
> my 8th GGfather: Capt. Valentine Hill = Mary Eaton
> my 9th GGfather: William Hill = Catherine Davy
> my 10th GGfather: John Hill = Alice ?
> my 11th GGfather: William Hill = Margarette Bylney [sister of Dr. Thomas Bylney]
> *
> Thomas Bylney = Mary Bellers
> John Bellers = Elizabeth de Howby [da of Anthony Sutton als Howby, son of Sir. Thomas De Sutton & Alice De Howby]
> James Bellers = Margaret Bernake
> William Bernake = Mary de Engaine
>
> IF my research is correct and after I have properly sourced all the generations, this will be another Royal Line.
> The issue I am having is connecting Margarette Bylney to Thomas Bylney and Mary Bellers. I have racked my
> brains and spent many many hours researching, but it seems the Bylney family in question have few records.
>
> Can, or will, any researcher that has done research on the Bilney / Bylney family please contact me?
>
> I
> found the connection from the Hill family to the Bylney family here, and
> in many other sources I have not shown here to save room:
>
> The visitation of Norffolk
> By William Harvey, Robert Cooke, John Raven (Richmond herald.), College of Arms (Great Britain)
> Page 154
> Hill Pedigree
> Harl. 1552, Ink fol. 14
> P. Cooke 1590
> Arms.—Gules,
> two bars ermine, in chief a lion passant per pale or and argent.
> Crest.—A boar's head and neck sable, in the mouth a broken spear proper,
> headed argent.
> William Hill of Hayles in Co. Norf. = Margarett da of Bylney, sister of the Dr.
> Alice
> da of..., widow of Jermyn Burroughs of Norf, 1st wife. = John Hill of
> Hayles in Co. Norf. = Alice Da. of Robert Shawborne of Norwich, 2nd wife
> (son if the 1st wife) William Hill of Hayles in Co. Norf = Catherine da. of Edmound Davye in Co. Suff.
> [John Hill, brother of Valentine Hill as shown in his will of 1665, proved 1687.]
> ***
> Genealogical gleanings in England, Volume 1
> By Henry Fitz-Gilbert Waters, New England Historic Genealogical Society
> Page 5
> John Hill, of London, merchant, 14 December, 1665, proved 8 February, 1687. [Note: Brother of Valentine Hill]
> To wife Sarah one thousand pounds.
> To daughter Sarah one thousand pounds and a silver bason.
> To daughter Elizabeth eight hundred pounds and a silver "sully bub pott."
> To daughter Hannah eight hundred pounds and a silver sugar box.
> Wife
> now great with child. If it prove a son then he is to have land and
> tenements in Winthorpe and Croft and elsewhere in Lincolnshire, of the
> yearly value of twenty-four pounds, and six hundred pounds in money.
> Whereas
> my brother Valentine Hill, late of New England, deceased, did owe me at
> the time of my (sic) decease, above three hundred pounds, not yet
> satisfied, I give and bequeath the said debt unto the children of
> my
> said brother Hill and to the children of my brother-in-law Mr. Thomas
> Cobbett, to be equally divided amongst them, share and share alike.
> To my niece Bridget Cobbett five pounds.
> To cousin Garrett's children ten pounds, to be equally divided among them.
> To cousin Thomas Browne and his wife forty shillings, for rings.
> To cousin John Browne forty shillings.
> To brother Hutchinson and sister each forty shillings, and cousin Elizabeth Meredith twenty shillings, to buy rings.
> To my brother Nathaniel Hunt and brother Richard Hunt, each five pounds.
> To brother-in-law John Miles and to his wife, each five pounds, and to their son John Miles, five pounds.
> To my maid-servant Prudence, forty shillings if dwelling with me at time of my death.
> To my cousins Charles, Margaret and Katherine Watkins, each twenty shillings, for rings.
> To the poor saints in London ten pounds, to be distributed at the discretion of my overseers.
> To the poor of the parish where I now dwell, forty shillings.
> The residue to wife Sarah, who is appointed executrix.
> Friends
> Mr. William Allen, Mr. William Sawyer, and Mr. Robert Wakeling,
> overseers. Witnesses, Nathaniel Hunt and Charles Watkin. Exton, 16.
> ***
> Pedigrees that relate to This family:
> The Visitation of Norfolk, 1563, 1613., Hill
> The Visitation of Norfolk, 1664., Hill
> London Visitation Pedigrees, 1664., Hill
> ***
> he pioneers of Maine and New Hampshire, 1623 to 1660: a descriptive list
> By Charles Henry Pope
> Page 95
> HILL,
> Valentine, merchant, Boston, admitted to the church 12 (4) 1636,
> admitted freeman May 13, 1640. Proprietor, town officer, deacon. Was
> chief owner of a large wharf property. Bought lands at Dover, and
> removed thither. Was chosen by the freemen to act as an assistant, with
> the magistrates, 5 (2) 1653. Signed petition to Gen. Court in 1654. He
> drew a bill of exchange 17 July, 1648, for 36 pounds, on his "brother,
> Mr. John Hill, merchant, at the Angell and Starre in Cheapside," London.
> [A.] With wife Mary he sold, Nov. 2, 1660, a farm at Stony river, New
> Haven, given to her as a legacy, by Gov. Theophilus Eaton, of New Haven.
> He
> m. 1, Frances —; she died 17 (12) 1644-5; he M 2nd: Mary Eaton
> daughter of Gov. Eaton; she was adm. to the chh. of Boston 15 (3) 1647.
> Governor Eaton's will, 1656, names three children, Theophilus, Jr.;
> Mary, wife of Valentine Hill of Boston, late of Piscataqua, and Hannah;
> mentions his wife and her son Thomas Yale. Children, Hannah b. 17 (1)
> 1638, (m. Jan. 24, 1659, Antipas Boyce,) John b. and d. in 1640,
> Elizabeth b. 12 (10) 1641, d. 9 (2) 1643, Joseph and Benjamin b. and d.
> in 1644, Joseph bapt. 26 (5) 1646, ae. about 8 days, John bapt. 22 (6)
> 1647, ae. about 3 days, Samuel bapt. 10 (10) 1648, ae. about 2 days,
> Mary bapt. 30 (10) 1649, ae. about 1 day, Elizabeth bapt. 25 (3) 1651,
> Nathaniel b. Oyster River beginning of March, 1659-60. He died before
> June 24, 1662, when his widow Mary received her dower. The widow m.
> second [Ezekiel] Knight.
>
> "Mrs. Mary Knight was before me on the
> 23d of May, 1702 and acknowledged that Nathaniel Hill was the son of her
> first husband, Valentine Hill. John Woodman, Justs. Pac."
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=L9ItAAAAYAAJ&dq=1643%20%22Mary%20EAT...
> **
> Genealogical Dictionary of Maine and New Hampshire, Sybil Noyes, Charles Thornton Libby, and Walter Goodwin Davis
> Portland, ME 1928-1939; Reprint, Baltimore, MD,
> Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc.
> Page: p. 330
>
> Valentine
> Hill moved from London, where he and his brother John were merchants,
> to Boston in early 1636. During 1636-1649, Valentine acquired a good
> deal of land in central Boston including land along the waterfront which
> is close to the area which presently occupies Fanuel Hall and Quincy
> Market. In 1641, he was elected as one of the "Selectmen" for Boston,
> the equivalent of a modern-day city council. His main business appears
> to have been as a trader -- exporting and importing products such as
> tobacco, indian corn, sugar, cattle, etc.
>
> He was a very
> prosperous and entrepreneurial sort and apparently quite well-to-do. In
> 1644, while a prosperous businessman and politician in Boston, Valentine
> acquired the Governors Mansion of Massachusetts. Governor John Winthop
> owed Valentine 500 pounds and settled his indebtedness by giving Mr.
> Hill the mansion. Valentine and his first wife, Frances Freestone, lived
> in the mansion for five years as did the first nine of his eleven
> children. Frances died in 1645 six months following the death of their
> twin sons Benjamin and Joseph. Valentine Hill re-married in 1645. He
> married Mary Eaton, daughter of the Governor of Connecticut, Theophilus
> Eaton. They had six children born between 1646 and 1659, the last of
> whom was Nathaniel Hill.
>
> Valentine and Mary Hill left Boston in
> 1649 and settled on a large 500 acre farm in Dover, Massachusetts at a
> site known as Oyster River Plantation (currently Durham, New Hampshire).
> Mr. Hill developed a lumber mill business and brought great prosperity
> to the Oyster River community. He became active in town politics and
> built the first town meeting house on land that now is part of the
> University of New Hampshire. Valentine Hill died unexpectedly and early
> in his life in 1661 at Oyster River. His estate was vast and carried
> many legal problems such that his estate was not finally settled until
> 1697, thirty six years after his death.
>
> Valentine's youngest son,
> Nathaniel, was the only heir to survive the lengthy legal entanglement
> of the Hill estate. In 1797 he renounced his ownership of the 500 acre
> farm that his father had left him in order to clear the estate. He had
> married Sarah Nutter in about 1680 and they had five children
> (Valentine, Samuel, Sarah, Abigail and Mary). Captain Nathaniel Hill was
> a deacon in the church at Oyster River and was prominent as an official
> of the town of Durham as well. Nathaniel died in Durham in 1741 and was
> said to have "lost his reason" during the final months of his long
> life....etc.
> ***
>
> "Ihr Racke, wollen sie ewig leben?" -Frederick the Great, 1712 - 1786

Is it this Dr Thomas Bilney that you are referreing to?

The christian martyr?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bilney


Doug Smith




--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From:
To:
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:21:09 -0600
Subject: Wife/Son of Richard Norton Chief Justice d.1420

This post corrects the name of Chief Justice Richard Norton's wife, mother
of Margaret (Norton) Stapleton. It also documents a Tempest ancestry for
Barton of Whenby, and removes one for Margaret Stapleton that is shown in
many sources but was (correctly) never claimed by Eliz Blanche Tempest in
'Tempest Pedigrees'.

Dugdale's 'Norton of Sawley' Pedigree (w Clay's 1901 additions,
http://books.google.com/books?id=FqJCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA72 ) shows the Norton IV.
and V. generations below. Paget - perhaps relying on it - also shows
Margaret [Norton] Stapleton's mother as 'Elizabeth Tempest dau of Sir John'.
Relying on Paget, genealogics's repeats Paget @
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00248710&tree=LEO . Old RPA
p.683 shows the chief Justice's wife as 'Elizabeth, daughter of Sir John
Tempest' as well, and the old DNB bio of Chief Justice Norton
(http://books.google.com/books?id=pxpbAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA662 , citing Surtees'
'Durham' pedigree i:clx) does so also. (have not checked ODNB to see if it
restates this identity).

IV. SIR RICHARD NORTON, KNT., Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, 26 June
1413, d. 20 Dec. 1420, bur. at
Wath, mar. Elizabeth, dau. of Sir John Tempest, of Studley (Glover 156,
319), d. 20 Sept. 1438, bur. at Wath. They had issue-
John (V).
Elizabeth, mar. Richard Goldesborough, of Goldesborough (Glover 369).
Margaret, mar. Sir John Stapleton, of Wighill (Glover 333).

V. SIR JOHN NORTON, KNT., of Norton and Sawley, d. 4 Dec. 1489, bur. at
Wath, Inq. P.M. 6 Apr. 5 Hen. VII, 1490, mar. Jane, dau. of Sir Randolph
Pigot, d. 6 Aug. 1488, bur. at Wath. They had issue-
&tc.

Four different errors can be noted in the above two generation pedigree:

1. The Chief Justice's wife was Katherine [Manningham], who d. 20 May 1418
and was buried at Wath next to her husband. This from a memorial in
Dodsworth's Church Notes for 17 Oct 1622 (also with Clay's additions, but
published a year after Clay's Dugdale - see
http://books.google.com/books?id=NmsKAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA222 ). While Glover's
page 244 'Norton als Conyers' pedigree states this (but transposing
Katherine's 1418 death date as 1481), Clay/Dugdale curiously never cite this
page in stating the Justice's wife was 'Elizabeth'.

2. Per Elizabeth Blanche Townley's 'Tempest Pedigrees', there never was a
Sir John Tempest of Studley.[1] Nor do any of Glover's visitation pages
cited in Clay/Dugdale's Norton pedigree show a Sir John Tempest of Studley
as a father. The p 156 'Mallory of Studley' pedigree that is cited calls
Norton's father-in-law 'Richard or William', and the p 319 'Tempest of
Bracewell' pedigree that is cited correctly calls him 'Sir William Tempest'
who m. 'Helen, dau and heir of Wm Washington'. Glover's p. 244 'Norton als
Conyers' pedigree - curiously uncited by Clay - calls him Sir Thomas or
Robert Tempest, but not Sir John.

3. The Sir John Norton of Norton Conyers who d. 4 Dec 1489 was indeed the
son and heir of a Tempest dau., her father being Sir William Tempest of
Studley. But Dugdale's identification of his father as the Chief Justice is
chronologically flawed, since John who d. 1489 was b. shortly bef Jan 1426
(age 26 in Jan 1451/52 per IPM of his grandmother), [EBT i:67] and was
highly unlikely to be son of someone d. 1420.

4. The name of John (V)'s mother was not 'Elizabeth', but 'Isabel'
Tempest.[EBT i:66] Her first name so stated in Dodsworth's previously cited
Church notes : "Another marble adyoining [the Chief Justice's]. Ricardus
Norton, qui xxij die mensis Septembris, et Isabella, uxor ejus, que xx die
ejusdem mensis, anno Domini Millesimo cccc° xxxviij°, obierunt, jacent hic
sepulti, quorum animabus propitietur Deus. Amen." This generation of
Nortons - missing from Dugdale - is present in Glover's p. 244 Norton
pedigree along with their dates of death. Glover inexplicably there shows
her name as 'Elizabeth' not 'Isabel', but his p. 319 Tempest pedigree
correctly identifies her as 'Isabel'. Whitaker's Richmondshire (ii:184 per
the footnote to the above cited church notes) apparently also mentions the
Wath church memorials, since 'Monumental Brasses' quotes Whitaker for the
same inscription (http://books.google.com/books?id=dr_4T6jul9QC&pg=PA330 ).

Glover's 'Norton' pedigree correctly includes an added generation of Richard
Norton (b. say 1400/05), who both Dodsworth and Glover state d. 22 Sep 1438.
Glover also shows the names and death dates for the Chief Justice, his wife
Katherine [Manningham], and 3 more generations of Nortons, all likely from
the memorials in Wath Church as reported by Dodsworth. It is difficult to
explain Clay's omission of this generation, given these additional records
and Clay's knowledge of Dodsworth, even if Dugdale missed it.

The dates of death in Dodsworth are consistent with EBT's independent
research that Isabel Tempest was b. 'say 1408' and its citation that
Isabel's husband d. bef Oct 1439 "when Sir William Tempest of Studley knt,
was summoned by the Bishop of Durham for the abduction of John, son and heir
of Richard Norton, the Bishop's ward and under age, from Norton Conyers (De
Banco Ro: 715 Mich. 18 Henry vj, m.671 dorso)" [EBT i:68]. As neither the
death dates nor place of burial for Isabel Tempest or her husband are noted,
EBT was likely unaware of the Tempest/Norton references in Whitaker's work,
of Dodsworth's Church Notes or of Glover's pedigree of Norton. But her
citation of several IPM's and other evidence makes clear that the Sir John
Norton who m. Jane Pigot [Dugdale's 'V.'] was the son of Isabel Tempest and
Richard Norton d. 1438.

Glover's extra generation of Norton is consistent with the 7 Jan 1465 [/66?]
will (pr. 8 Jan 1465/66) of Margaret Norton, dau of the Chief Justice who m.
John Stapleton of Wighill [Testamenta Eboracensia, Vol 1 Part II; Surtees
Soc; Vol 30 (1855) page 270 @
http://books.google.com/books?id=Eq4DAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA270 ]. In it she leaves
bequests to her brother William and his heir John, and to "Johanni Norton
militi consanguineo meo". This indicates that Sir John Norton's father was
indeed then d., and is consistent with Sir John being the heir of Norton
Conyers as well as being the nephew rather than brother of Margaret.

Further confirmation of this extra generation of Richard Norton is found in
a short bio of John Norton, prebend of Ripon. The bio first cites clear
evidence the prebend was son of the chief justice, and then notes that one
of the executors of the prebend's will (pr. 23 Feb 1435/36) was 'his brother
Richard Norton' (who did not d. until 3 years later) [Joseph Thomas Fowler;
"Memorials of the Church of SS. Peter and Wilfrid, Ripon'; Vol 78; page 203
@ http://books.google.com/books?id=aEcJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA203 ]. Having d. bef
his sister Margaret, this explains why the prebend is not noted in Margaret
Stapleton's 1465 will.

Dugdale's pedigree (also Paget &tc) should thus read something like as
follows for these generations:

IV. SIR RICHARD NORTON, KNT., Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, 26 June
1413, d. 20 Dec. 1420, bur. at
Wath (Dodsworth 222), mar. Katherine (perhaps Manningham), d. 20 May 1418
(Glover 156, 319), bur. at Wath (Dodsworth 222). They had issue-
Richard (IV-a, Added Generation).
William, d. aft 7 Jan 1465/66, his son and heir John living 7 Jan
1465/66.
John, prebend of Ripon, d. bef 23 Feb 1435/36
Elizabeth, mar. Richard Goldesborough, of Goldesborough (Glover 369).
Margaret, d. bef 8 Jan 1465, mar. Sir John Stapleton, of Wighill (Glover
333).

[IV-a, Added Generation.] RICHARD NORTON, of Norton and Sawley, b. say 1405,
m. bef 29 Jan 1425/26 (EBT i:62 shows a son and heir age 26 29 Jan 1451/52),
d. 22 Sep, 1438, bur. at Wath [Glover 156, Dodsworth 222], m. Isabel
Tempest, b. say 1408 (EBT i:66) dau of Sir William Tempest of Studley by
Eleanor Washington (EBT i:61), Isabel d. 20 Sep 1438, bur. at Wath
[Dodsworth 222]. They had issue-
John (V.)
Isabel, d. aft 29 Oct 1450, mar. bef that date ... Borton/Barton. [EBT
i:67]

V. SIR JOHN NORTON, KNT., of Norton and Sawley, b. shortly bef 29 Jan
1425/26 [EBT i:67], d. 4 Dec. 1489, bur. at Wath, Inq. P.M. 6 Apr. 5 Hen.
VII, 1490, mar. Jane, dau. of Sir Randolph Pigot, d. 6 Aug. 1488, bur. at
Wath. They had issue-
&tc.

One can also now identify the spouse of the added generation's dau Isabel.
Both Flowers' and Glover's 'Barton of Whenby' state that Richard Barton of
Whenby m. Isabel dau of John Norton of Norton. Richard Barton was the son of
Conan who m. Joan Strangeways - Joan Strangeways m.(2) Christopher Boynton.
If one identifies 'John Norton of Norton' as Isabel's brother instead of her
father, these names and relationships match those stated in Richard Barton's
10 Aug 1455 will [Testamenta Eboracensia, Vol 1 Part II; Surtees Soc; Vol 30
(1855) page 215 @ http://books.google.com/books?id=Eq4DAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA215 .],
where 'My broder John of Norton' is named as an executor. Per a footnote to
that will, 'John Norton, knyght' was also an executor for Richard Barton's
son Christopher. As Richard Barton's wife Isabel (Tempest) is not named in
his will, she was most likely d. bef 10 Aug 1455.

Glover's Barton pedigree (portions in [2] below) shows the couple's
gr-gr-grandson was Edward Barton of Whenby Esq., d. 1610, who m. Eliz Norton
of Norton Conyers (genealogics has their descendants @
www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00503599&tree=LEO ). Elizabeth
was dau of Francis and granddau of Richard 'Old Norton' of Pilgrimage of
Grace fame whose fictional dau Emily became Wordsworth's famous 'White Doe
of Rylstone'. She was also the gr-gr-gr-gr-granddau of chief Justice Richard
Norton.

In 1450, Isabella [Norton] Barton was named as heir of her bro John if he
had no issue.[3] This seems final evidence neither were children of Chief
Justice Richard Norton, whose dau Margaret was still alive.

Terry Booth
Chicago IL
Copyright 2011

Notes
-----
[1] [Hereinafter 'EBT'] Eleanor Blanche Tempest (1853-1928); 'Tempest
Pedigrees'; Handwritten MSS 1878-1922; Transcribed by Canon C.E. Foster in 3
Volumes; Digitized by John R Schuerman (Stonyhurst Copy); Medieval English
Genealogy website. Vol. I @
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/families/ebt/Volume1.doc
[2] Robert Glover; Visitation of Yorkshire 1584/85 (edited by Joseph
Foster); London; Foster; 1875 [sub 'Barton of Whenby', page 5]. The descent
is as follows :
Richard Barton of Whenby m. Isabel Norton [grand-dau of the chief
Justice] and had issue including
Christopher Barton, d. bef 17 Apr 1480 [per footnote to his father's
will] m. Margaret dau of Robert Danby Justice, and had issue including
John Barton of Whenby ob 21 Hen VII [1505/06] m. Margaret dau of Sir Jno
Pickering and had issue incl
Thomas Barton 2nd son 34 Hen VIII [1542/43] m. Barbara dau of Christopher
Lassells of Brackenburgh and had issue including
Edward Barton of Whenby Esg. d. 1610 m. Elizabeth dau of Francis Norton
of Norton Conyers
[3] EBT i:67, citing Feet of Fines; Divers Countries 28-34 Henry vi; File 72
No. 369, levy date of 29 Oct 1450, which states that Isabel [Tempest]
Norton's share of her father Sir William Tempest's estate "were settled on
her son John Norton Esq. and his heirs and for default on Isabel Borton
[Barton] his sister."





This thread: