GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2012-01 > 1325632564


From: "Janet Wolfe" <>
Subject: RE: Origin of Sir John Say (died 1478),Speaker of the House of Commons
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 18:16:04 -0500
References: <617a9736-eac3-4d5b-a87c-0d3e20bc01cd@h12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com><000901ccca65$404f2ca0$c0ed85e0$@edu>
In-Reply-To: <000901ccca65$404f2ca0$c0ed85e0$@edu>


The case does start on folio 336d (it's a bit tricky to read the odd upside
down folio numbers!)

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no744/bCP40no744dorses/IMG_1467.htm

So the folio numbers are above the case descriptions as one would expect.
The cases on folio 340d is also described on the British History Online
website, below the case on folio 336d.

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Janet Wolfe
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 5:16 PM
To: 'Douglas Richardson';
Subject: RE: Origin of Sir John Say (died 1478), Speaker of the House of
Commons

Here is the case on the AALT website, in case you'd like to read it.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no744/bCP40no744dorses/IMG_1475.htm

It appears to be folio 340d rather than 336d. The folio numbers must be
below rather than above the case descriptions on the British History Online
website.

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Douglas Richardson
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 3:55 PM
To:
Subject: Origin of Sir John Say (died 1478), Speaker of the House of Commons

Dear Newsgroup ~

A prominent man in the medieval period is Sir John Say (died 1478), of
Broxbourne, Hertfordshire, who held a variety of responsible posts in
his long career in public service: Coroner of the Marshalsea, Yeoman
of the Chamber & Crown, Keeper of Westminster Palace, Chancellor of
the Duchy of Lancaster, Privy Councillor, Under Treasurer of England,
Keeper of the Great Wardrobe, and Speaker of the House of Commons. By
her first marriage to Frederick Tilney, Sir John Say's wife, Elizabeth
Cheyne, is better known as an ancestress of Queen Anne Boleyn.

Contemporary evidence indicates that Sir John Say had two brothers,
[Master] William Say [Dean of St. Paul’s, Master of the Hospital of St
Anthony, London] and Thomas Say, clerk, of London. However, the
parentage of these three brothers has always been shrouded in mystery.

Genealogist n.s. 7 (1890): 57 identifies the parents of Sir John Say
as being John Saye, of Poldington, Bedfordshire, and his wife, Maud.
I've never been able to confirm that alleged parentage.

Recently I came across the lawsuit below dated 1447 which features
John Robberdes and his wife, Alice, as plaintiffs against William
Gawge. The lawsuit involves a debt owed by the said Gawge to Alice
Robberdes' former husband, John Say, of Poddington, Bedfordshire.
John Say was living in 1439, but dead before 1447.

Possibly this lawsuit would be helpful in unraveling the parentage of
Sir John Say.
'
Sincerely, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + +
Court of Common Pleas, CP 40/744, rot. 336d

Term: Hilary 1447
County: London
Writ type: Debt (bond)
Damages claimed: £20
Case type: Bond

Pleading: John and Alice Robberdes state that on 1 October 1439
William Gawge made bond with John Say, now deceased, in £10, but did
not pay JS during his lifetime, and has not paid Alice, widow and
executor of JS, or JR, her new husband, to their damage of £20. They
show the bond in court, and the testamentary letters of JS, by which
they have executry and administration.

Pleading: WG granted licence to imparl to quindene of Easter. Pledges
named.

Case notes: Many of same people appear in another case on this rot,
and two more on rot 340d.
Events Type Place Date
Bond London < England (initial) 01/10/1439
(due) 02/02/1440 < Blessed Virgin Mary, Purification of
(due) 25/12/1440 < Christmas

Individuals Individual Status Occupation Place
Role
Alice Robberdes (f)

Executor, Plaintiff
Henry Wylton (m)

Attorney of plaintiff
John Chapman (m) Yeoman Sywell <
Northamptonshire Surety for defendant
John Robberdes (m)

Plaintiff
John Say (m) dec.
Podington <
Bedfordshire Testator
Richard Pittis (m) Gentleman Brigstock <
Northamptonshire Surety for defendant
Thomas Craunfeld (m) Gentleman Brigstock <
Northamptonshire
Surety for defendant
William Archebold (m) Husbandman Rushden < Northamptonshire
Surety for defendant
William Gawge (m) Husbandman (lately of) Hinwick <
Bedfordshire Defendant

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message





-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message





This thread: