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Subject: Re: Proposed descent from Henry II to Francis Hayden, early immigrantto Maryland
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 18:53:14 -0700 (PDT)
References: <lutf3d$dj7$1@reader1.panix.com>
In-Reply-To: <lutf3d$dj7$1@reader1.panix.com>


I found another potential problem with our line.

The will of John George of Great Gaddesden (as found in "Abstracts of Wills in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury", currently viewable on Google Books) is dated 24 Aug, 18 James I (1621 if I'm not mistaken). This will mentions "Frauncis, wife of Edw. Heydon of Watford, and his bro., Wm. Heydon. This will also mentions "Henry Burre of Watford, his bro., John Burre", along with several other Burres.

It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to suppose that Frances mentioned in the above will was Frances Burr, wife of Edward Heydon.

In Eaton Bray, Bedfordshire (roughly 20 miles from Watford), 6 Jul 1562, there was a marriage of a Thomas Burre to a Jane George. Also in Eaton Bray, in 1574, was the baptism of Frances Burre whose parents are not listed in the record. I don't know for sure whether this is our Frances, but I think it's a promising lead.

Now here's where things get problematic. If you look at the article here -- http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/glos/vol9/pp187-208 -- it says "Francis Heydon died in 1606 and his son and heir Edward was incorrectly described in 1608 as lord of Shipton Oliffe and Solers. After Edward Heydon's death in 1617 Shipton Solers manor belonged in remaindership to his wife Mary (d. 1625)." Unfortunately it gives no source for the latter statement, but if Edward Heydon of Shipton Solers died in 1617 and his widow was Mary, not Frances, then it would appear Edward Heydon who married Frances Burr was not the son of Francis Hayden and Frances Longueville.


On Thursday, September 11, 2014 at 8:34:53 PM UTC-4, Patrick Nielsen Hayden wrote:
> Plus, questions about historical consciousness!
>
> But first, the actual descent. From Henry II to Sir Robert de Holand,
> we're just working with Ancestral Roots, 8th edition, buttressed by
> other standard historical reference sources. So:
>
> Henry II, King of England (1133-1189) = Ida
>
> William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury (abt 1170-1226) = Ela (1191-1261)
>
> Sir Stephen Longespee (1214-1260) = Emeline de Ridelisford (1220-1276)
>
> Ela Longespee (1246-1267) = Sir Roger la Zouche (1242-1285)
>
> Sir Alan la Zouche (1267-1314) = Eleanor de Segrave (1270- )
>
> Maud la Zouche (1289-1349) = Sir Robert de Holand (abt 1283-1328)
>
> Sir Robert de Holand (abt 1312-1373) = Elizabeth
>
> Sir John de Holand (abt 1348-aft 1409) = Margaret
> [Douglas Richardson, "Complete Peerage Addition: Parentage of Elizabeth
> Holand, wife of Sir Roger Fiennes", two articles for
> soc.genealogy.medieval, April 28 & 29, 2004.]
>
> Elizabeth de Holand (1385-1449) = Roger de Fiennes, MP (1384-1449)
> [L. S. Woodger, "Fiennes, Sir Roger (1384-1449)", in The History of
> Parliament: The House of Commons 1386-1421, ed. J.S. Roskell, L. Clark,
> C. Rawcliffe, 1993. Also Douglas Richardson, "Complete Peerage
> Addition: Parentage of Elizabeth Holand, wife of Sir Roger Fiennes," as
> above.]
>
> Margaret Fiennes (1415-1503) = Nicholas Carew, MP (abt 1395-1458)
> [L. S. Woodger, "Fiennes, Sir Roger (1384-1449)", as above.]
>
> Nicholas Carew (abt 1436-1466) = Margaret Langford (abt 1438-1501)
> ["Parishes: Purley", in A History of the County of Berkshire: Volume 3,
> ed. P. H. Ditchfield & William Page, 1923, pp. 417-422.]
>
> Elizabeth Carew (abt 1465- ) = Walter Twynyho (abt 1465-aft 1508)
> ["Parishes: Nutfield", in A History of the County of Surrey: Volume 3,
> ed. H. E. Malden, 1911, pp. 222-229.]
>
> Edward Twynyho (abt 1488-1526) = Edith Stileman (abt 1488 - ?)
> ["Parishes: Shipton Oliffe and Shipton Solers", in A History of the
> County of Gloucester: Volume 9, ed. N. M. Herbert, 2001, pp. 187-208.
> Also D. F. Coros, "Heydon, Henry (by 1507-59), of Watford, Herts.", in
> The History of Parliament: The House of Commons 1509-1558, ed. S.T.
> Bindoff, 1982. Also the 1572 Visitation of Hertfordshire, London,
> Harleian Society Publications, v. 22, p. 11.]
>
> Anne Twynyho (1509-1559) = Henry Heydon, MP (bef 1507-1559)
> [D. F. Coros, "Heydon, Henry (by 1507-59), of Watford, Herts.", as
> above. Also the 1572 Visitation of Hertfordshire, as above. Also, a
> court case, "Heydon v. Lawrence," plaintiffs: Henry Heydon, esquire,
> Anne his wife, and John Dauntesey, gentleman; defendant: Robert
> Lawrence; subject: land (described) belonging to the manor of Shipton
> Sollars, late of Edward Twynnho, deceased, father of the said Anne and
> of Katherine late the wife of the said John. Date: 1553-1555. Held by
> the National Archives, Kew.]
>
> Francis Heydon (abt 1540-1606) = Frances Longueville (1538-1598)
> [The 1572 Visitation of Hertfordshire, as above; in fact, Francis was
> the signatory for the "Heydons of the Grove" pedigree. Also George
> Lipscomb, The History and Antiquities of the County of Buckingham,
> volume IV, 1847, page 415. Also "Parishes: Shipton Oliffe and Shipton
> Solers", as above.]
>
> Edward Heydon (1561-1617) = Frances Burr (1574-1605)
> [The 1572 Visitation of Hertfordshire, as above. For his birth,
> "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," index, FamilySearch
> (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J973-LJD), Edward Heydon, 03 Dec
> 1561; citing ST MARYS, WATFORD, HERTFORD, ENGLAND, reference; FHL
> microfilm 991355. Father's name is given as "Francis Heydon." For their
> marriage 17 Nov 1597, image in hand from the parish register of St.
> Mary's, Watford, Hertfordshire, now in the county records office of
> Hertfordshire; obtained via findmypast.co.uk. Also "Parishes: Shipton
> Oliffe and Shipton Solers", as above.]
>
> Edward Heydon (1602 - ?) = Ellenor Whitehead (1605 - ?)
> [For his baptism, image in hand from the parish register of St. Mary's,
> Watford, Hertfordshire, now in the county records office of
> Hertfordshire. Obtained via findmypast.co.uk. Describes him as "Edward,
> son of Edward Heydon." For their marriage, 1 Nov 1627, image in hand
> from the parish register of St. Mary's, Watford, Hertfordshire, now in
> the county records office of Hertfordshire, obtained via
> findmypast.co.uk.]
>
> Francis Hayden (1628-1694) = Thomasine Butler (1630-1702)
> [For his baptism, "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975" index,
> FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NR4S-861: accessed
> 20 Jul 2014), Francis Haydon, 14 Aug 1628; citing ST MARYS, WATFORD,
> HERTFORD, ENGLAND, reference; FHL microfilm 991355. Father's name is
> given as "Edward Hayden"; his birth is nine and a half months after the
> marriage, in the same church, of Edward Heydon b. 1602 to Ellenor
> Whitehead. For his death, bef 12 June 1694, or perhaps bef 12 June
> 1697, St. Mary's County, Maryland. Maryland Calendar of Wills, Volume
> 2. His will, apparently dated 30 April 1697, is transcribed in Maryland
> and Virginia Colonials by Sharon J. Doliante (Baltimore: Genealogical
> Publishing Company, 1991), as is the endorsement that "On the back of
> the ffore Goeing it was Thuss Endorsed Viz June ye 12th 1697. The
> within Wrighten will was proved before me According to Law as wittness
> my Hand and Bore the Day and Yeare above Written. [Hall of Records,
> Wills, Liber 6, ff. 134-135.]" There is some confusion about the actual
> year of his death, because his wife Thomasine was sued in her own name
> in 1694, by her son-in-law Thomas Allman and her daughter Penelope, in
> a dispute over personal property. As Doliante points out, Thomasine
> could not have been sued in her own name if Francis had been living.
> Further, on a deed executed in 1696, his daughter Penelope described
> herself as "daughter and heiress of Francis Heydon, deceased." It seems
> likely that the date on Francis's will was somehow mistranscribed.
> NOTE: He was the first immigrant Hayden in Virginia and Maryland, and
> the first to spell his surname Hayden, although he reverted to Heydon
> when drawing up his will.]
>
> Additions, corrections, and for that matter debunkings are all welcome;
> I'm relatively new to this kind of research, but not so new that I
> haven't already had the experience of painstakingly tracing a line to
> historically-interesting people, only to discover that the line
> founders on an inconvenient fact.
>
> As a pretty-damn-sure descendant of the immigrant Francis Hayden, I am
> of course interested in whether this line is "correct," or at least
> plausible. But assuming it is, my further question, which I hope will
> interest at least one or two of the experts who periodically post to
> this newsgroup, is this: How aware would a minor gentry figure like
> Francis Heydon (not the immigrant, but his great-grandfather,
> 1540-1606) have been of his own descent from various mighty figures of
> English, Scottish, and Welsh history? Would he have had any clue that
> his Twynyho mother was descended, via Carews, Fienneses, de Holands,
> etc., from Henry II? Or, for that matter, also through the
> Twynyho/Carew connection, from endless hard-to-spell Welsh figures like
> Angharad verch Rhys (1160-1226), or Magna Carta figures like Roger le
> Bigod and his son Hugh?
>
> My sense is that he would _not_ have known these things; he would have
> had some idea that his mother's Twynyho forebears married some
> offspring of important families, just as he did when he married Frances
> Longueville, but he would have had only a vague idea of the specifics
> beyond at most three or four generations back. Specifically, my
> tentative guess is that, for those of us in 2014 with documented
> ancestors in the English gentry ca. 1400-1600, it is today possible to
> know vastly more about our ancestry stretching back to the fifth to
> seventh centuries than almost any of our actual medieval ancestors did.
> (Leaving aside the crowned heads for whom this kind of detailed
> knowledge was of, literally, existential importance.)
>
> I edit science fiction for a living, so I'm very taken with the idea
> that, in the future, vastly more people will know vastly more proven
> facts about their own personal ancestry, going back vastly more
> centuries, than has ever before been the case. Am I wrong? I welcome
> explanations of the breadth and depth of my error.
>
> --
> Patrick Nielsen Hayden
> pnh@ panix. com
> about.me/patricknh



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