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Archiver > GENBOX > 2005-02 > 1107258987


From: "Robert Warnock" <>
Subject: Re: [GENBOX] Beginner's Problems #3 Places and place levels for Scottish place names.
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:56:27 -0000
References: <HLENKFAGJBOMJKOMBBPJEEPPDIAA.paulharris@nc.rr.com>


What I have found to be confusing is the use of the labels which are not
appropriate in a Scottish (and probably English) context.
Examples from my own database
1) Janetta Cottage, Fauldhouse, Whitburn
In this Janetta Cottage is obviously a Local site, while Fauldhouse is a
village or township, in the Parish of Whitburn. What is not stated is that
this is in the County of West Lothian in the Country of Scotland.
The available labels of Level 1 Local Site 2 City/Town 3 Township 4 County/
Parish 5 State/Province 6 Country/Area could obviously be used but require a
lot of effort on my part to remember.
In a posting in May 2003 Bill suggested, and you seem to repeat, that we
use 1 Local site 2 City/town (which I could use for village) 3 Township
would become Parish 4 County/Parish would become County 5 State/Province
would be unused and 6 would remain as Country, and I am sure this could be
done if I can remember that what I think of as a Parish is now a Township.
2) Couch Farm, Whitburn
Here Couch Farm is a Local Site and Whitburn is still a Parish, with no
Level 2
3) Rashierigg Cottage, Whitburn, where Whitburn is now a Village in the
Parish of the same name
Can the same name be used for 2 distinct levels - Level 2 Village and Level
3 Parish? This is getting too much for me to use.
4) Liberton Hospital, Edinburgh
Now Liberton Hospital is a Local Site, but Edinburgh is a City, a higher
level than a Parish. So we might now have:
1 Local Site 2 Town/Village 3 Parish 4 City 5 County and 6 Country
I'm afraid I agree with Julia in May 2003 that it would be much less
confusing (certainly for one so stupid as I am) to label the levels simply
with numbers, which would appear on the screen and not just on a piece of
paper beside the computer. Each country system could then use these as
appropriate. Of course the ideal would be to have a set of options for
different requirements for different countries, but I suspect this would be
a bigger programming change.

I am also somewhat confused as to how to change the level of a name which
already appears. There are no problems in creating a new place from scratch,
as the screen for this has all the levels set out at one time, but existing
names cannot access anything like this. You say that places can be promoted
if the higher level is not already taken, but in my few trial attempts to do
this I would have to move a higher level up one stage to make room and then
have difficulty getting back to where I was, particularly as the same name
e.g. Whitburn could belong to 2 different levels as discussed above. So it's
back to the drawing board and further lack of sleep unless someone familiar
with British names can give advice.

One further question regarding places as they appear in reports. Assuming I
manage to sort out the levels as discussed above, is it possible to print
place names as they appeared on the original certificate where the name
would often be truncated by, for example, omitting the Parish name, for some
names and not for others? For example I have a place called Sunnylea
Cottage, Crofthead, Fauldhouse where Sunnylea cottage and Crofthead are 2
parts of a Local Site, and Fauldhouse is a Village. But if I set Report
Options to give me Level 3 for some places can I have up to only Level 2
for others, as in this example the parish of Whitburn, which Fauldhouse is
in, did not appear on the certificate?

Regards

Bob Warnock


----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul J. Harris" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 9:00 PM
Subject: RE: [GENBOX] Beginner's Problems #3 Places and place levels for
Scottish place names.


> Hi Bob,
>
> I am not terribly familiar with U.K places, but there are a number of
> others
> on this list that are. Genbox will do what you want, if you do not get
> hung
> up on the LABELS on the place fields. They are only meant to be
> 'suggestive,' and are not absolute in the data entered. The Place Levels
> relate to each other in a hierarchy, and the relationships are more
> important than the labels. Therefore, in your example below, the Parish
> name
> can be entered in the Township level to link the village to the county.
> The
> County Level can be linked directly to the Country, skipping the State
> level.
>
> First you said that a town is in a Parish, which is in a County. Then you
> said that multiple Parishes make up a city. If you want to be consistent
> in
> the level you use for various types of places, this is problematic. Are
> you
> sure that you don't mean that a city can spread over several Parishes,
> rather than the Parishes making up the city. If this is the case, you can
> create Name Variations for the city to reflect the different higher level
> of
> the various Parishes, keeping the hierarchy as city, parish, county,
> country. However, this is a whole other topic. Some of the UK members of
> the
> list can enlighten us as to how they deal with this.
>
> When you want to 'work' with Places, the best place to start is the Place
> View (Menu>View>Places). On the General Tab a place level can be promoted
> or
> demoted with the Level drop-down list, if the level is not taken by
> another
> place record. The dialog box that you encountered when entering a NEW
> place
> primarily CREATES new place records. Existing ones should be modified from
> the Places View. Again, narrowing the subject down to a specific example
> would be most helpful.
>
>>>particularly as it insists for example that Edinburgh is in
> Scotland but will not allow me to put it in Midlothian, Scotland.
>
> Genbox comes with a number of Country and County Place records installed
> by
> default. If I open the Place View and search for Edinburgh, Scotland, I
> get
> two choices, two different records. One is the Edinburgh (city level) and
> the other is Edinburgh (County/Parish level), which is actually a Name
> Variation for Mid-Lothian (county level). It appears from the database
> that
> Mid-Lothian also can be referred to as Edinburgh? Well, I'm confused, and
> defer to those more knowledgeable on the subject. <g> However, in the
> Place
> View of the record for the city of Edinburgh, you can easily insert
> Mid-Lothian (county) between it and Scotland by typing it in the Higher
> Place field:
>
> Standard Name: Edinburgh
> Higher Place: Mid-Lothian, Scotland
>
> This will modify the Place record for the city of Edinburgh (all
> occurrences) to Edinburgh, Mid-Lothian, Scotland.
>
> Every import from Gedcom requires cleanup to places and sources. It takes
> a
> little time and an understanding of how the program works. Read and
> re-read
> the online help section on places and place hierarchy to gain more
> insight.
>
> Paul
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Warnock [mailto:]
> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 2:08 PM
> To:
> Subject: [GENBOX] Beginner's Problems #3 Places and place levels for
> Scottish place names.
>
>
> I am afraid the hierarchy of place levels in GB does not suit that in the
> U.K.
>
> What I require is one of:
>
> 1 Local Site: house number and street, or farm name etc
>
> 2 Village or town - often blank for farms
>
> 3 Parish - this sometimes takes the name of a village within it, so 2 may
> be
> repeated
>
> 4 County
>
> 5 Country, which I do not usually enter unless it is outwith Scotland, as,
> to me at least, it is so obvious.
>
> But there is another possibility where a number of Parishes make up a City
> within a County, as for example with Edinburgh which includes a number of
> Parishes but which is in the County of Midlothian so that one gets:
>
> 1 Local site
>
> 2 blank
>
> 3 Parish (often left blank)
>
> 4 City
>
> 5 County
>
> 6 Country
>
> I did find a piece of a thread in May 2003 on this subject with a
> suggestion
> which might be implemented to allow the level names to be put in
> preferences, but I can not find this as having been implemented.
>
> I also find (and again you will have to realise how thick I am) that
> viewing
> the levels for all the places already entered very difficult to follow. So
> far all I have managed to do is go to View - Lists - Places and then
> double
> click on an entry. This tells me the level I am at, and allows me to get a
> higher level, but I cannot see how to change these to suit a scheme as
> laid
> out above, particularly as it insists for example that Edinburgh is in
> Scotland but will not allow me to put it in Midlothian, Scotland.
>
> I tried an experiment of entering a new place name, and it came up with a
> box:
>
> Pleas confirm. Add marked place?
>
> which had exactly what I would like for ones already entered. Is it
> possible
> to get this view of places? It would be extremely useful as it would also
> allow a name to be moved from one level to another.
>
> Could some kind soul therefore give me simple steps as to how to achieve
> my
> aims, and if necessary how to amend entries which are already there?
>
> Bob Warnock
>
>
>
> (same apology as in #2)
>
>
>
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