RootsWeb: GENBRIT-L GENBRIT-D Digest V97 #106

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------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain GENBRIT-D DigestVolume 97 : Issue 106 Today's Topics: #1 Re: degrees of povery in Scotland [J R Todd <>] #2 Re: Lyth & Sandside, Westmoreland? [J R Todd <>] #3 The BRUTON Family Tree [Abbots Technology Ltd <roger.bruto] #4 Re: DORSET UK -specific listserver [ (Mike Casw] #5 Re: London Parish Records [Howard Benbrook <] #6 Re: Southampton,England ["Martin Worthy" <] #7 List of Parishes [ (Alice)] #8 Re: Christmas Day : 7th January [] #9 Re: IGI: Squire Squire, and simila [] #10 Re: St Katherine Coleman, London [Howard Benbrook <] #11 Re: Info on Sheffield [ (Mike Ga] #12 Re: List of Parishes [ (LeeAnn)] #13 Re: Christmas Day : 7th January [ (Dorothy L ] #14 Re: Christmas Day : 7th January [ (Mike L6830)] #15 TIMMS/AMBROSE [ (marilyn potvin)] #16 Re: Margaret O'Brien mid 1800, Lim [ ( )] #17 double names on IGI [ (Gordon Jo] #18 Newsgroups trouble ["Bill Symonds" <] #19 Dawson - Gt. Missenden ["Peter Knevitt" <.] #20 Surname Smart ["carolina smart" <] #21 Re: Hall in Britain ca. late 1500' [ (GeneS6948)] #22 FRENCH DECORATIONS - WW2 [ (Willmott, ] #23 Gosley family search ["Russell J. Fletcher" <gimplimp@te] #24 Re: Christmas Day : 7th January [Charles Ellson <] #25 Re:Christmas Day, 7th January [ (David & Ka] #26 Re: Occupation: Commercial Travele ["Raymond Skilbeck" <] Administrivia: This GENBRIT digest has been distributed by RootsWeb. RootsWeb's home page is at http://www.rootsweb.com/. If you would like to unsubscribe from GENBRIT, send to the message "unsubscribe" (without the quotation marks). Don't include your address, your signature, or anything in the message body except that one word. (Do this also if you want to shift to NOMAIL mode, then just resubscribe later.) If you would like to have a message included in the GENBRIT digest, send it to . ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #1 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:03:27 +0100 From: J R Todd <> To: Message-ID: <> Subject: Re: degrees of povery in Scotland The message <> from Lesley Robertson <> contains these words: > I've been checking through the census records for Whitsome > (Berwickshire). In the 1861 book, the residents of one house were > described as "poor needlewomen", while next door were "pauper ag.labs". > "Pauper" is the normal description used for the "financially > challenged", but surely the enumerator wouldn't give judgement on the > quality of someone's work on the census form? Am I right in assuming > that "poor" in this case simply indicates a lesser degree of poverty - > I've never seen the distinction before. > Lesley Robertson A pauper was, by definition, a person in receipt of relief from the Poor Law Union. The intention of the government, via the Poor Law Amendment Act of 1834, was to put all paupers in the workhouse but the Boards of Guardians found that it was often cheaper to keep someone in his own home so they did not send everyone to the workhouse. For example, in the Union round Chester it cost something like 4 shillings a week to keep a pauper in the workhouse but a dole of 2 shillings might be considered enough for someone who would live at home. A great deal of the relief given was for sickness. The stigma of the workhouse was to be avoided at all costs so your "poor needlewoman" was probably living hand to mouth with the help of family and friends. She was not necessarily better off then the paupers next door but she had avoided the threat of the workhouse. I am writing about the case in Englands and Wales, of course, but I don't think things in Scotland were all that much different although the Poor Law was applied later than in England. Richard ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #2 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:04:06 +0100 From: J R Todd <> To: Message-ID: <> Subject: Re: Lyth & Sandside, Westmoreland? The message <> from Mike Longworth <> contains these words: > Arthur Strange wrote: > > > > Hi Folks, > > I have the birth place for two ancestors as LYTH, Westmoreland and > > SANDSIDE, Westmoreland. I cannot find the two places on my maps ... > > > Arthur > I can find three SANDSIDES: > - Sandside, Cumbria, locality 2km East of Ulverston, Map ref: SD 3077 > - Sand Side, Cumbria, village on east side of River Duddon estuary > 5mi/8km north of Dalton-in-Furness, SD 2282 These two were in Lancashire before the County of Cumbria was formed > - Sandside, Cumbria, locality on left bank of River Kent estuary 2km > west of Milnthorpe, SD 4780 This one was in Westmorland Who are you looking for? I have ancestors from Milnthorpe. <Snip> Richard ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #3 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:00:36 -0700 From: Abbots Technology Ltd <> To: Message-ID: <> Subject: The BRUTON Family Tree Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **** IT'S BACK ON-LINE**** My Family Tree pages are back on-line on my web-site at http://www.abbots.mcmail.com/rb/geneal.htm Currently there are about 150 surnames, from ALEFS to WRIGHT; 760 individuals and 264 families (with cross-references to my larger *NON-WEB* (11,700 entries) database, containing all GRO BRUTON births/marriages/deaths for the period 1837-1995 - email me for details). Roger Bruton, Hertfordshire http://www.abbots.mcmail.com/rb ******************************* ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #4 Date: 24 Sep 1997 14:42:05 -0700 From: (Mike Caswell) To: Message-ID: <> Subject: Re: DORSET UK -specific listserver! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a SPECIFIC list server for Dorset send email to:- in the message write only:- subscribe leave subject and signature blank Thanks ---------- > From: Ray Collins <> > To: > Subject: Re: DORSET UK > Date: Wednesday, September 24, 1997 08:53 > > Hi Paul > > You wrote: > > > Could anyone help me with information on the > > following placenames : > > > > * Moor Critchel > > * Manor of Kingston Lacy > > Moor Crichel (no "t") is a village of about 150 people situated some 4 to 5 > miles north of Wimborne in Dorset. > > Kingston Lacey is a manor house near Wimborne.There is a book about it > called "A Kingston Lacey Childhood". > > > > Is there a specific DORSET listing. Would be appreciate if you could let > me > > know. > > There is a very good mailgroup covering the Wessex area (which includes > Dorset). To subscibe send the message "subscribe" to > > > Hope this helps. > > Ray Collins > ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #5 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:50:36 +0100 From: Howard Benbrook <> To: Message-ID: <> Subject: Re: London Parish Records Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No one collection, Jeremy, but three main ones which will probably help the most: Guildhall Library, Aldermanbury, London. EC2P 2EJ - for the parishes in the City of London City of Westminster Archives Centre, 10 St. Anne's Street, London SW1P 2XR. - for most of the parishes in the City of Westminster London Metropolitan Archives (formerly Greater London Record Office), 40 Northampton Road, London EC1R 0HB - for most of the rest of 'London'. You won't find marriage or birth certificates, only parish registers, or bishops transcripts, of the events. You probably won't see the registers themselves either - they're all on microfilm. It's going to be important to know the parish, or at least the vicinity (so you can try a small number of parishes). There really were (are) a huge number of people living in London. The index books alone in the London Metropolitan Archives, for instance, take up a longish wall, floor to head height. Is there any way you can narrow it down? Howard Benbrook Camberley, Surrey, UK Jeremy Austin wrote: > > Possibly a very silly question... > > Is there a central collection of pre-1837 Parish records for London? > > My gggf William Dawson (father William Dawson, mother Maria) was born in > London on 10 May 1810 (died Invercargill, New Zealand 1883), married Ann > Lydia Barrett (b. 1809, Staffordshire, d. 1894, father Ebenezer Barrett, > mother Ann). I would like to try and find marriage and/or birth > certificates for both the William Dawsons, but I dont know what parish they > were born in. Any ideas?? > > many thanks > > jeremy austin > > ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #6 Date: 24 Sep 1997 21:56:38 GMT From: "Martin Worthy" <> To: Message-ID: <01bcc934$a9df5740$> Subject: Re: Southampton,England Mike is right { Hi Mike - long time no see :-) } Just the other side of the roundabout at the top of Southampton is Fred Wooley House ( a convalescent home ) which might possibly have been in Chilworth Road once ? Mike Lillington <> wrote in article <>... > In article <>, > writes <snip>> ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #7 Date: 24 Sep 1997 15:05:33 -0700 From: (Alice) To: Message-ID: <> Subject: List of Parishes Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Is there such a thing as a complete list of parishes for Britain? It seems that some parishes overlap counties lines and from where I sit across the pond it can sometimes be very confusing. Better still is there an URL for same? Hello, my name is Alice and I live in Ontario, Canada. I have just subscribed to your List and find it to be top-notch. I am researching my English/Irish roots. @>England/Scotland:|:SELLERS:|:STAIR:|:HAMPSON:|:COTTAR:|:KELLY:<@ In: CHESHIRE:|:LANCASHIRE:|:YORKSHIRE:|:NORTHUMBERLAND:|:DURHAM:<@ @>Ireland:|:KELLY:|:MALONEY:<@ In: TIPPERARY:|:CLARE:| Alice mailto: Ontario, Canada ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #8 Date: 24 Sep 1997 15:15:37 -0700 From: To: Message-ID: <> Subject: Re: Christmas Day : 7th January I had always heard that the 7th of January was the "Twelfth Day of Christmas" (ie. twleve days after Christmas) which was supposed to be the day that the Wisemen actually made it to Bethleham - hence the Christmas carol.............. ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #9 Date: 24 Sep 1997 15:16:52 -0700 From: To: Message-ID: <> Subject: Re: IGI: Squire Squire, and similar Hmmmmm....... don't know about the IGI, but I have an anscestor whose given name was Squire, presumably Squire Squire would refer to the title of someone whose name happened to be Squire. ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #10 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:03:55 +0100 From: Howard Benbrook <> To: Message-ID: <> Subject: Re: St Katherine Coleman, London Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert - St Katherine Coleman is a parish in the City of London. So the place you need for the records is: Guildhall Library, Aldermanbury, London. EC2P 2EJ. They hold almost all the parish registers for the City of London. Howard Benbrook Camberley, Surrey, UK Robert Wilson wrote: > > I have some ancestors christened at St Katherine Coleman, London > (according to the IGI), around 1700. Where is the best place to look to > find the whereabouts of the church, please? Presumably the records (oir > copies) are kept at the London Record Office. > -- > Robert Wilson ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #11 Date: 24 Sep 1997 15:22:37 -0700 From: (Mike Gallafent) To: Message-ID: <aZjkVHAB$> Subject: Re: Info on Sheffield In message <01bcc905$99d4a280$>, "T.L. miller" <> writes >I have been working on the Sheffield's for about 3 years now..My data base >is around 700 names..any help would be great... > >______________________________ To keep up your interest...:) 'Lincolnshire Wills 1500-1600' by Rev. A.R.Madison, Lincoln 1888 contains transcriptions of the wills of: Charles Sheffield George ,, Jane ,, Jasper ,, John ,, Robert ,, 'Early Lincoln Wills 1280-1547' by Alfred Gibbons, Lincoln 1888 has another Sheffield will. 'North Country Wills 1383-1558, Surtees Society 1908 has the wills of Edmund Shefeld Robert Sheffelde Mike. ======================================================================== Mike Gallafent - 57, Western Elms Ave, Reading, Berks, RG30 2AL England =============================================== ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #12 Date: 24 Sep 1997 15:26:47 -0700 From: (LeeAnn) To: Message-ID: <> Subject: Re: List of Parishes Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:26:46 -0400 >To: (Alice) >From: LeeAnn <> >Subject: Re: List of Parishes >In-Reply-To: <> > >At 03:05 PM 24/09/97 -0700, you wrote: >> Is there such a thing as a complete list of parishes for Britain? >>It seems that some parishes overlap counties lines and from where I sit >>across the pond it can sometimes be very confusing. Better still is there >>an URL for same? > > >Hi Alice, >I'm not the author and have no ties to the program, but thought I'd pass along this neat little shareware tool I came across which I find very useful. It's called A-Tools and can be downloaded at: > >http://www.btinternet.com/~genealogy/agene.htm > >The main programs contains three tools, but the one I find *very* handy is the >A-Locate. You type in the name of a parish (or first few letters) in the UK and it pops up all the parishes found by that name, gives the county, can calculate surrounding parishes, etc..... Very handy Check it out! > >Happy hunting, >LeeAnn Ontario, Canada E-mail: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ { Researching my family history: } { http://www.visualcreations.com/pers/leeann/genealogy/ } { WHATLING Family History, a one name study } { http://www.visualcreations.com/pers/leeann/whatling/ } { Suffolk Surname Interest List (U.K.) available at: } { http://www.visualcreations.com/pers/leeann/suffolk/ } ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #13 Date: 24 Sep 1997 16:33:40 -0700 From: (Dorothy L Dolan) To: Message-ID: <> Subject: Re: Christmas Day : 7th January Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII That's the 6th of January (aka Epiphany.) I've been told that Jan 7th is Christmas in the Eastern Orthodox church. A Serbian juror on the OJ Simpson trial got the court shut down for the holiday. :) Peggy Peggy A. Dolan On 24 Sep 1997 wrote: > I had always heard that the 7th of January was the "Twelfth Day of Christmas" > (ie. twleve days after Christmas) which was supposed to be the day that the > Wisemen actually made it to Bethleham - hence the Christmas > carol.............. ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #14 Date: 24 Sep 1997 23:48:19 GMT From: (Mike L6830) To: Message-ID: <> Subject: Re: Christmas Day : 7th January Rod wrote.. <<I have just been reading a document (England) of 1716 which refers to Christmas day as being on 7th January. When did this change (in England) to 25th December?> I think this was a 14 day calendar correction to ensure we planted the crops at the right time. ie 14 days were omitted. Many people objected since they thought their lives would be shorter. Mike ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #15 Date: 24 Sep 1997 17:14:27 -0700 From: (marilyn potvin) To: Message-ID: <> Subject: TIMMS/AMBROSE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Arthur Coles, and all other searchers, I am looking for any info on any or all of these people and am hoping someone will recognize a name of perhaps a relative or friend. Louisa May Timms married John (Jack) Ambrose in 1911. They lived in the City of Oxford, UK. I have a letter of Louisa's from her sister Lottie Hill. The letter is written in 1954, and Lottie's address at that time was Mrs F Hill 17 Northumberland Ave Reading, Birks. Eng People mentioned in this letter are brother Rowland ( wife Alice) Ern and Nell .....lived "in a Council House along Witney"(Rd?) Harry Kate Joe..........lived "near the Chapel" Eva Fred Lizzie......lived "up the Minster Rd in a C-house" Joe, Ern and Lizzie are "quite close to one another" Also mentioned is a brother Arthur who was killed in 1932, on Lottie's mother's birthday ( sometime around Christmas, as the letter is a Xmas Greeting). She says that "this time(Xmas) always brings back very sad memories. Arthur was killed on Mother's birthday 22 years ago." She also mentions a Florence and Louie. The letter is dated 12.12.1954, and Lottie says that she is 76 years old, so she would have been born around 1878. Louisa and Jack Ambrose had 5 children, all born in the UK. Aldridge (my father) Ernest Eva Ivy and William All these children are now desceased and I am at a loss as to where info is available. If anyone recognizes any of these names I would be delighted to hear from them. Regards Marilyn Potvin EMAIL 213 Blossom Ave W Brantford ON Canada N3T 5L5 ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #16 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:18:57 GMT From: ( ) To: Message-ID: <> Subject: Re: Margaret O'Brien mid 1800, Limerick, Ireland motley () wrote: : I am seeking any information at all about Margaret O'Brien born in : Limerick, Ireland who emigrated to Australia and married John Lincoln on : February 11th, 1857 in Melbourne, Victoria. Margaret's parents were Daniel : O'Brien and Catherine Hennessey. See:http://www.mayo-ireland.ie/Geneal/Limerick.htm Limerick Family Heritage Centre computerizing parish records Provides search service for a fee http://www.bess.tcd.ie/roots/prototyp/limerick.html Limerick sources for genealogy http://www.mindspring.com/~cc003636/obrien.html O'Brien Clan http://www.users.on.net/proformat/auspass.html Australian and New Zealand Passenger Lists http://www.kst.dit.ie/nat-arch/index.html Convicts transported from Ireland to Australia These, and other useful links, can be reached from the TIARA web site. _______________________________________________________________________ Dennis Ahern | The Irish Ancestral Research Association Acton, Massachusetts | Dept. W, P.O. Box 619, Sudbury, MA 01776 | http://world.std.com/~ahern/TIARA.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #17 Date: 24 Sep 1997 17:46:03 -0700 From: (Gordon Johnson) To: Message-ID: <> Subject: double names on IGI Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" DaveB asked: This has probably been asked before, but if so, I missed it. Does anyone know why the IGI occasionally comes up with names like Squire Squire, and Major Major ? ********** No idea, but I also found an entry for Cole, King King. True! Gordon. ****************************** Gordon Johnson, Aberdeen, Scotland. KinHelp - historical surname searches & genealogical services: http://www.web-ecosse.com/genes/genes.htm Home page with more goodies - http://www.ifb.co.uk/~kinman/ ****************************** ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #18 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:32:58 +0930 From: "Bill Symonds" <> To: Message-ID: <01bcc94e$5f8958c0$> Subject: Newsgroups trouble I am not receiving messages from all of the soc.genealogy newsgroups . Is there a problem??? -- ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #19 Date: 25 Sep 1997 02:23:10 GMT From: "Peter Knevitt" <> To: Message-ID: <01bcc959$118a9b60$> Subject: Dawson - Gt. Missenden Hello All I am looking for information on WILLIAM DAWSON b. 1811 in Gt. Missenden, Bucks. and who in 1838 married MARY ANN WHITCHER in Gt. Missenden. They emigrated to South Australia in 1839. Any information gratefully received. Peter Knevitt ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #20 Date: 26 Sep 97 03:23:41 GMT From: "carolina smart" <> To: Message-ID: <01bcc962$9f7eda40$> Subject: Surname Smart I am searching for the history of the name of Smart. My Grandparents both come from small towns near Glasgow, Scotland. Our clan joined the clan McGregor, the leader being the infamous outlaw Robert McGregor. (remember the movie Rob Roy) If you should have any information on the Surname of Smart please let me know. Please respond to . ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #21 Date: 25 Sep 1997 03:26:35 GMT From: (GeneS6948) To: Message-ID: <> Subject: Re: Hall in Britain ca. late 1500's Andrew, My name is Gene Slacum. The spouse of your John Hall is my Jane Woollen (NOT Wollen) b.1622 in England. The couple had the following children: John b.1644 New Haven,CT d.02 Sep 1721 Sarah b.1646 New Haven,CT;m.Wm. Johnson Dec 1664 Samuel b.1647 New Haven,CT Thomas b.1649 New Haven,CT Jonathan b.05 Apr 1651 New Haven,CT David b. 18 Mar 1652 New Haven,CT; d. 1727 Mary b. 1654 New Haven,CT; d. 31 May 1718 Even though the children were all born in New Haven,CT, they were christened in Wallingford,CT. I believe your John Hall is the husband of my 8 th great grand aunt. The John Hall in my family group sheets died 1675/6 in Wallingford,Ct. There are a terrible lot of coincidences. Please e-mail me back with your opinions. Have a nice day, Gene Gene Slacum Jr ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #22 Date: 24 Sep 1997 20:46:11 -0700 From: (Willmott, Jerry) To: Message-ID: <> Subject: FRENCH DECORATIONS - WW2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My father was awarded the French Croix de Guerre whilst serving with No. 6 A.S.P? in France during the period 6 Oct 1939 to 19 Jun 1940. He was a Temporary Corporal RAF at the time, but I believe the award was not made until about Feb 1941, by which time he was a Temporary Flight Sergeant. What I would like to know is: (a) What was No. 6 A.S.P.? (Advance Support Party?). I believe it may have been a joint RAF/Army unit. My father was certainly part of the Dunkirk evacuation. (b) How would I go about tracing and obtaining a copy of his citation? I believe he was offered the opportunity to "swap" the French award for the Military Medal, but turned it down - he never wore the decoration on his RAF uniform in subsequent years. Any advice gratefully received. Jerry Willmott ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #23 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:58:24 -0700 From: "Russell J. Fletcher" <> To: Message-ID: <60cnd7$l7v$1@news1.teleport.com> Subject: Gosley family search Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am looking for people surnamed Gosley. So far on the internet I have found mostly US, Canada, and Australia, but got one really nice call the other day from one Gosley in the UK. Our branch seems to be in Ontario, but we can only go back 2 generations so far. (and most Gosleys seem to think they are the *last* of the Gosleys.......They aren't. Russ ---- Russell & Linda Fletcher . http://www.teleport.com/~gimplimp/ . Calvary Community Church http://www.teleport.com/nonprofit/calvary/ All Christian Win95 themes found http://www.teleport.com/~gimplimp/htm/themelogo.htm ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #24 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 02:52:09 GMT From: Charles Ellson <> To: Message-ID: <> Subject: Re: Christmas Day : 7th January In article <+> "Rod Neep" writes: > I have just been reading a document (England) of 1716 which refers to > Christmas day as being on 7th January. > > When did this change (in England) to 25th December? > It didn't, it always was the 25th (cue further thread that it was really in the summer, but the date was fiddled to hi-jack a pre-Christian festival), so the document sounds a bit suspect or it may be referring to the end of the Christmas holiday period (traditionally 12 days long, but maybe someone's fiddled the whole fortnight off <g>). In 1716, however, the English calendar was 11 days behind many other European countries, so anyone looking over Hadrian's Wall (or across the Channel?) would have been watching the English celebrate Christmas in early January as the calendar changed in 1600 in Scotland. Bearing in mind that some English parish registers exist where the 1st January seems to have been used as New Year's Day some years before the change took place officially, perhaps the writer of the document was similarly ahead of his time. -- _______ +---------------------------------------------------+ |\\ //| | Charles Ellson E-mail | | \\ // | +---------------------------------------------------+ | > < | | // \\ | Alba gu brath |//___\\| ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #25 Date: 24 Sep 1997 21:46:53 -0700 From: (David & Kathy Holland) To: Message-ID: <> Subject: Re:Christmas Day, 7th January Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >January 7th is also Ukranian Christmas - perhaps there's a link to >that? Or perhaps when the calendars changed, the Ukranians decided to >keep Christmas where it had always been. > >Rod Neep wrote: > >> I have just been reading a document (England) of 1716 which refers to >> Christmas day as being on 7th January. >> >> When did this change (in England) to 25th December? It is commonly believed--even by the Roman Catholic Church today-- that the 7th of January was probably a more accurate calculation of the birth of Jesus, if you calculate out the differences between the Hebrew calender, the Julian calendar and the Gregorian calendar (what we use now). England adopted the Gregorian calendar in 1752. Most of the Eastern Orthodox/Eastern Rite churches today still use 7 Janaury as their Christmas day. The reason why the Roman Catholic church (& ultimately Europe) moved it to 25 December was because 25 December was originally a pagan holiday (& something to do with the winter solstice). The Roman Church "co-opted" that date in order to convince the pagans to convert to Christianity. And, as you know, the Roman Church had a cultural stronghold throughout Europe long enough to determine which calendar Europe used. Hence, the reason why 25 December is considered to be Christmas day. Kathy Holland ______________________________ ------------------------------ X-Message: #26 Date: 25 Sep 1997 04:58:05 GMT From: "Raymond Skilbeck" <> To: Message-ID: <01bcc96f$cb454a80$> Subject: Re: Occupation: Commercial Traveler A commercial traveller i uk terms was a representative, a bit better than a travelling salesman. Ray Skilbeck Richard Nisley <> wrote in article <>... > What exactly did a commercial traveler do for a living? > > Thanks, Joan >