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From: "Roy Perkins" <>
Subject: Re: Battle of Degsastan, A.D.603
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 22:09:54 +0100


Hi Chris,

Thanks for the note. I'm making some progress. I'll get back to you a.s.a.p.

Roy
Chris Morgan <> wrote in message
news:...
> Not sure how all this connects with traceable genealogy, but old Bede
> clearly thought he knew where Degsastan was. In "Northanhymbre Saga"
(1992)
> John Marsden agrees with Roy's placing of the battle.
>
> "Thus it would have been in Liddesdale that Aethelfrith would have laid
his
> ambush and it is not difficult to imagine the shield-wall of the English
> host ranked on the slopes of the rounded hill, formerly known as Dawston
> Rigg and probably the site of the monolith Bede knew as "Degsa's stone" ,
> rising up from the Dawston burn."
>
> In translation Bede says "at a famous place known as Degastan, that is,
> Degsa's Stone." Bede was a knowledgeable chap, but maybe his more vague
> descriptions and spellings lead others astray. He does not seem to refer
> to a monolith. Ninestones Rigg is indeed not far away. The First Edition
> 6 inch rdnance Map marks this as "Nine Stones Druidical Circle
(Supposed)".
> I assume "Supposed" refers to the origins, rather than the existence, of
the
> stones. Presumably this was no less famous a landmark on the hill in those
> parts in 603 AD. Even if the battle actually took place a few miles away,
is
> it not possible that it would be remembered by the famous 9 Stones? Could
> Degas's Stone not be a contemporary description of the famous Druidical
> Circle?
>
> Probably too simple an explanation to be true - merely idle speculation.
> But, even if true, was Degas a word for 9 (or even 10 with one stone
lost),
> a person, or a thing?
>
> Chris Morgan
>
> Roy Perkins <> wrote in message
> news:2pEB5.8897$...
> > The Venerable Bede, (673(?)-735, tells us in his 'Historia Ecclesiastica
> > Gentis Anglorum' of a great battle which was fought in 603 A.D. between
> > Aedan, Christian King of the Dalriada Scots and his Irish allies and
> > Aethelfrith, Pagan King of Northumbria. The site of this battle in which
> the
> > Pagan Northumbrians triumphed is not clear, but its consequences were
far
> > reaching, this was the start of the process of anglicisation the South
of
> > Scotland. It was a seminal battle perhaps even more important in many
ways
> > than Flodden Field. It could even have been instrumental in prompting
the
> > return of Cunnedda and his Votadini from North Wales.
> > But where was Daegsastane and what does it mean. There are three
> > claimants as the site of this battle:
> > 1. Dalston, Carlisle
> > 2. Florida Rig, Liddesdale, Roxburghshire.NY518 906.
> > 3. Dawston Burn, Liddesdale, Roxburghshire.NY57 99.
> >
> > The case for Dalston I know nothing of but perhaps one of our
> Cumbrians
> > can help.
> > That for Florida seems to have been popular in the last century but
> does
> > not appear to stand up so well to more recent investigation. The
evidence
> > for Florida appears to largely rest upon the earlier existence on this
> site
> > a settlement known as Dawstones or Daegstons. It appears not to have
> > occurred to the promoters of this hypothesis that if two events occur
1200
> > years apart, it is marginally more likely, especially if the earlier
event
> > is famous and the later is obscure, that the later event is named after
> the
> > former than that the former is named after the latter.
> > To my mind the case for Dawston Burn is unanswerable. The site lies
at
> > the very head of Liddesdale, almost on the watershed between Scotland
and
> > England. Militarily just where you would expect a defending force to
> choose
> > its ground. Moreover the side of the hill is marked with defensive
> > escarpments and many arrowheads and other weapons have been, from time
to
> > time, found there. Sadly these finds have not been logged or gathered
> > together and there has been, so far as I know no systematic
> archaeologicical
> > investigation of the site. There are also in the vicinity many
unexplored
> > 'cairns', perhaps containing the dead. On the left bank of Dawston Burn
> > rises Barren Rig separated from the next hill Cadroun or Caddroun Rig by
> > Caddroun or Cadroun Burn. Many historians have dismissed this as a
quirky
> > spelling of Cauldron Rig or Cauldron Burn. I believe that this is a
> mistake
> > arising from confusion with the local legend of the murder of de Soulis
by
> > boiling him in a cauldron full o!
> > f molten lead. Even if this legend were true, which it isn't, the events
> are
> > said to have taken place on the Nine Stane Rig some 4 miles to the south
> > west. No the word Cadroun or Caddroun must stand on its own, which it
> does.
> > Through the efforts of my friend Mr. Michael Chappell, I am now in a
> > position to explain it. Cad is British for battle, war or fight, whilst
> > although 'roun' as such does not exist there are two very similar
British
> > words, rhuon meaning a soldier and rhon meaning a spear or lance.Thus
one
> > can, I think sensibly, translate Cadroun Rig to mean the hill where the
> war
> > of the soldiers or spears was.
> >
> > All of which is fine, but who or what was Degsa, Dexa, Daegsa, Daeg of
> > something similar???? Any takers.
>
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