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Archiver > GENBRIT > 2003-07 > 1058027512

From: "Vaughan Sanders" <>
Subject: Re: counties; was Interesting children
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 17:31:52 +0100
References: <%9TKa.2736$> <ZQZKa.722$> <NZZKa.194$> <> <IO6Ma.924$> <ei7Ma.4202$> <> <be1eqt$68to$> <be1ic8$pmn$> <> <> <gioNa.2705$> <be7302$rq7$> <be8h4b$g70$> <> <beco48$ma7$> <> <y8UPa.56963$>

"Rick J" <> wrote in message
> "Robert Bannister" <> wrote in message
> news:...
> > Vaughan Sanders wrote:
> >
> > > London is a Roman city and a Roman name.
> >
> > Are you sure about that? Wasn't Lud a Celtic god?
> >
> This from:
> The name is assumed to be of Celtic origin, awkward for those who
> believe that there was no human settlement here before the Romans
> their city. Its actual meaning, however, is disputed. It might be
> derived from Llyn-don, the town or stronghold (don) by the lake or
> stream (Llyn); but this owes more to medieval Welsh than ancient
> Its provenance might be Laindon, "long hill," or the Gaelic lunnd,
> "marsh." One of the more intriguing speculations, given the reputation
> for violence which Londoners were later to acquire, is that the name
> derived from the Celtic adjective londos meaning "fierce."

The archaeology of London shows some small farming settlement around
Charlton, but nothing of substance until the Romans decided it was the
best place for a bridge.

> There is a more speculative etymology which gives the honour of naming
> to King Lud, who is supposed to have reigned in the century of the
> invasion. He laid out the city's streets and rebuilt its walls. Upon
> death he was buried beside the gate which bore his name, and the city
> became known as Kaerlud or Kaerlundein, "Lud's City." Those of
> cast of mind may be inclined to dismiss such narratives but the
> of a thousand years may contain profound and particular truths.

This is straight out of Geoffrey of Monmouth, iii 20 (Before the Romans

"Heli had three sons: Lud, Cassivelaunus and Nennius."

"When Lud died he was buried in the above named city, near to the
gateway which in the British tongue is still called Porthlud after him,
although in Saxon it bears the name Ludgate."

Very unlikely that G of M was right about King Arthur invading Iceland
and Rome in the 5th century.

> The origin of the name, however, remains mysterious. (It is curious,
> perhaps, that the name of the mineral most associated with the
> city-coal-also has no certain derivation.) With its syllabic power, so
> much suggesting force or thunder, it has continually echoed through
> history-Caer Ludd, Lundunes, Lindonion, Lundene, Lundone, Ludenberk,
> Longidinium, and a score of other variants. There have even been
> suggestions that the name is more ancient than the Celts themselves,
> that it springs from some Neolithic past.

Sorry I don't follow the connection of London to coal?.

This is from Nennius.
(13th century Ms)
"7. The island of Britain derives its name from Brutus, a Roman consul.
Taken from the south-west point it inclines a little towards the west,
and to its northern extremity measures eight hundred miles, and is in
breadth two hundred. It contains thirty-three cities, viz."

1. Cair ebrauc (York)
2. Cair ceint (Canterbury)
3. Cair gurcoc (Anglesey)
4. Cair guorthegern
5. Cair custeint (Carnarvon)
6. Cair guoranegon (Worcester)
7. Cair segeint (Silchester)
8. Cair guin truis (Norwhich?)
9. Cair merdin (Caermarthen)
10. Cair peris (Porchester)
11. Cair lion (Caerleon-upon-Usk)
12. Cair mencipit (Verulam)
13. Cair caratauc (Catterick)
14. Cair ceri (Cirencester)
15. Cair gloui (Gloucester)
16. Cair lullid (Carlisle)
17. Cair grant (Cambridge)
18. Cair daun (Doncaster)
19. Cair britoc (Bristol)
20. Cair meguaid (Meivod)
21. Cair mauiguid (Manchester)
22. Cair ligion (Chester?)
23. Cair guent (Caerwent?)
24. Cair collon (Colchester?)
25. Cair londein (London)
26. Cair Guorcon (Worren?)
27. Cair lerion (Leicester)
28. Cair draithou (Drayton)
29. Cair ponsavelcoit (Pevenscy)
30. Cairteimm (Teyn-Grace)
31. Cair Urnahc (Wroxster)
32. Cair colemion?
33. Cair loit coit (Lincoln)


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