Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2002-03 > 1016474775

From: "Allan S. Gleason" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] New AMH Nomenclature
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 11:06:15 -0700
References: <a04310102b8ba3df0d180@[]>

Thanks Patrick,
I've downloaded the YCC chart and I already had Underhill's papers in my virtually
overwhelming virtual library. I think I have plenty of homework, now, to keep me
out of trouble. Both charts appear pretty complicated - with your explanations
below and if I read the texts (sound out the words) maybe I can see how they relate.

In his more recent paper, (Ann. Hum. Genet. (2001), 65, 43-62), Underhill presents a
list of his "M" numbers, their positions and including their primers in the
appendix. Do at least some of these relate to our common garden variety DYS names?
For example if I dug out the location of DYS-abc would it be at the same location in
bp in Underhill's paper such that M-def and DYS-abc are one and the same marker?
Thanks again,

Patrick Guinness wrote:

> At 10:55 am -0700 16/3/02, Allan S. Gleason wrote:
> >It will be fun trying
> >to figure it out. I hope Mark and Patrick really get into a discussion on it.
> Find this page and download Fig. 1 - more if you have time.
> The AMH / haplogroup 1 is in (or includes all) the new Hgs R1b* thru
> R1b8. (at bottom)
> R1a etc. = old-style Hg3
> R1b* Let's call ourselves 'The Ribs' for now. You'll see that they
> still haven't figured out which came first.
> R1b8 = Hg22, according to the YCC paper, and Hg22 (mainly Basques &
> Catalans) also includes the AMH STR signature 14-12-24-11-13-13.
> [I'm sorry if some of you use a different order, but that's the
> sequence used by the rest of the world.]
> If you find the same STRs in close haplogroups, it becomes important
> to know which Hg you're in, unless you have a genealogical lineage to
> work with. I'm beginning to see how the AMH in Europe is likely
> subdivided within the R1bs. That means that the AMH remained a
> dominant modal pattern after the R1bs emerged.
> Certainly the 'Norse' haplotypes are seen in the other formerly-Hg2
> or -Hg3 groups, which are now seen to be distant from each other.
> That means a 'Viking' test from the various companies is just a guess.
> If you look at Table 2 in the YCC paper, you'll see some Ribs
> described as 'English', 'German', Russian' and 'Porch Creek'.
> Go back to the colour chart Figure 1, expand to 400%, and look at the
> mutations leading to the Ribs - P25, M73 etc.
> Then go to Peter Underhill's original paper which lists these SNPs,
> at Nature Genetics, Vol. 26, Nov 2000 and correlate the mutation
> numbers with those on his chart at p. 359 as best you can. Magnify to
> at least 400%. (to him, Hg1 and Hg3 = 'Hg IX'). Then at p.360 check
> out where these have been found (several dozen from Europe,
> mainly.....).
> For better colour graphics, maps etc., the SNP details (M73 etc.),
> but nothing more on R1b, see Underhill's similar paper in the Annals
> of Human Genetics (2001) vol 65, pp. 43-62. Now you know as much
> about the R1bs as anyone.
> So a) there's not much to discuss, Allan, but b) these will all
> tell their (our) story as data comes on-stream in future and c)
> other R1bs may be found.
> PG
> ==============================
> To join and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to:

This thread: