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From: "Cheryll Reed" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] NYTimes.com Article: Celtic Found to Have Ancient Roots
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 10:21:21 -0400
In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: <WheJoB.A.r5G.opuA_@lists5.rootsweb.com>


By Ulster Ireland, am I safe in assuming you mean the original occupants
and not the Ulster Scots who were transplanted there (known in the U.S.
as the Scotch Irish)?

-----Original Message-----
From: Grant South [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 9:32 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA] NYTimes.com Article: Celtic Found to Have Ancient
Roots


Yes I do think that both haplogroups G* and J2 are Celtic.

Haplogroup G is found to have the greatest frequency in this order.

1.Georgia
2. Abazinian Ethnic group's
3. Ulster Ireland*
4. Azerbaijan

In the article Dr's Foster and Toth put forward a split in the
continental and British versions of Gaelic as being approx. 3200BC.

I also see the Neolithic migration reaching the 'Isles' at approx. 4000
BC. In Ireland only Neolithic Court Tombs are found in the north and
dated at approx. 3500 BC. This is further confirmed by the Neolithic
introduction of pottery to Ireland. Evidence in co.Tyrone suggests
Neolithic settlement dating at various cites between 3900-3000 BC.

As we find a large representation of HgG* in Ulster this supports the
theory of an early Neolithic Celtic migration from the continent,
further supported by the estimated Gaelic split.

Sites on both sides of the Celtic sea further suggest the migration
route was over the Scotland-Antrim link. On the Irish side of this link
in Ulster is found HgG*.

Based on the information at hand, Neolithic migration out of both the
'Fertile Crescent and the 'Caucasus Mountain's being placed around 8100
BC, and it took 4000 years for these ancestors to make their way to the
'Isles'. In terms of R1a or R1b being Celtic I believe it is without
doubt that they spoke Celtic tongues and those identified as Celt's were
an admixture of all those peoples met along the Neolithic path of
migration over a period of 4000 plus years.

In terms of the Neolithic haplogroup's and their new status as Celtic,
it is, I believe, also now without doubt that the Indo-European language
group was developed within Neolithic culture and introduced to
Palaeolithic Europe, with farming and associated technologies.

And so I uphold that the Neolithic Haplogroup's of G & J in the 'Isles'
are also Celtic being members of the Indo-European cultural migration
which made they way to the Isles over a period of 4000 years and were
part of those peoples who spoke the Indo-European Celtic group of
languages, being themselves the Indo-Europeans.


All the best.
Grant South



----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Williamson" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 5:47 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] NYTimes.com Article: Celtic Found to Have Ancient
Roots


> I wrote:
> "I suggested J2 as an "Indo-European" haplogroup in the sense that if
> J2
is the haplogroup associated with the spread of Neolithic farmers into
Europe from western Eurasia, and if these farmers were speakers of
Indo-European..."
>
> Then I noticed that Family Tree DNA associates R1a with the first IE
speakers, who they equate with the Kurgan culture (anyone see the movie
"Highlander"?). I guess it depends on which theory you subscribe to:
that the bringers of IE languages to Europe were nomadic pastoralists,
or that they were Anatolian farmers. Maybe it was both?
>
> No one knows (yet), which is why there are a range of theories among
historians & archaeologists.
>
> Steve W.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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