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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2003-07 > 1057202172


From: Steve Williamson <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] NYTimes.com Article: Celtic Found to Have Ancient Roots
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 20:16:24 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <0f4301c340c3$573b4b90$0100a8c0@atlantis>


Not all historians agree that the Picts were
matrilineal. The records can be interpreted in other
ways - check out Smyth's "Warlords & Holy Men" for
example.

Steve W.


--- wrote:
> Dalriadans -- from Ulster and founders of Scotland
> as an identity -- are
> thought to have had patrilineal kingships, in
> contrast to the matrilineal
> Picts with whom they are thought to have unified to
> form Scotland as it has
> historically identified.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Grant South" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 9:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [DNA] NYTimes.com Article: Celtic Found
> to Have Ancient Roots
>
>
> > Hi Cheryll
> >
> > We say Ulster Scots in Australia, as this
> differentiates them from the
> > Gallowglass Scots being Scottish Clans whom
> settled earlier in Ulster
> being
> > of either Gaelic or Viking descent such as the
> Sweeney's [MacSweeny] of
> > Donegal and the Macdonald's, etc.
> >
> > Yes I was talking about those who are identified
> as native Gaels being
> > members of the ancient Celtic Clans of Ulster.
> >
> > All the best.
> > Grant South
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Cheryll Reed" <>
> > To: <>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 12:21 AM
> > Subject: RE: [DNA] NYTimes.com Article: Celtic
> Found to Have Ancient Roots
> >
> >
> > >
> > > By Ulster Ireland, am I safe in assuming you
> mean the original occupants
> > > and not the Ulster Scots who were transplanted
> there (known in the U.S.
> > > as the Scotch Irish)?
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Grant South
> [mailto:]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 9:32 PM
> > > To:
> > > Subject: Re: [DNA] NYTimes.com Article: Celtic
> Found to Have Ancient
> > > Roots
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes I do think that both haplogroups G* and J2
> are Celtic.
> > >
> > > Haplogroup G is found to have the greatest
> frequency in this order.
> > >
> > > 1.Georgia
> > > 2. Abazinian Ethnic group's
> > > 3. Ulster Ireland*
> > > 4. Azerbaijan
> > >
> > > In the article Dr's Foster and Toth put forward
> a split in the
> > > continental and British versions of Gaelic as
> being approx. 3200BC.
> > >
> > > I also see the Neolithic migration reaching the
> 'Isles' at approx. 4000
> > > BC. In Ireland only Neolithic Court Tombs are
> found in the north and
> > > dated at approx. 3500 BC. This is further
> confirmed by the Neolithic
> > > introduction of pottery to Ireland. Evidence in
> co.Tyrone suggests
> > > Neolithic settlement dating at various cites
> between 3900-3000 BC.
> > >
> > > As we find a large representation of HgG* in
> Ulster this supports the
> > > theory of an early Neolithic Celtic migration
> from the continent,
> > > further supported by the estimated Gaelic split.
> > >
> > > Sites on both sides of the Celtic sea further
> suggest the migration
> > > route was over the Scotland-Antrim link. On the
> Irish side of this link
> > > in Ulster is found HgG*.
> > >
> > > Based on the information at hand, Neolithic
> migration out of both the
> > > 'Fertile Crescent and the 'Caucasus Mountain's
> being placed around 8100
> > > BC, and it took 4000 years for these ancestors
> to make their way to the
> > > 'Isles'. In terms of R1a or R1b being Celtic I
> believe it is without
> > > doubt that they spoke Celtic tongues and those
> identified as Celt's were
> > > an admixture of all those peoples met along the
> Neolithic path of
> > > migration over a period of 4000 plus years.
> > >
> > > In terms of the Neolithic haplogroup's and their
> new status as Celtic,
> > > it is, I believe, also now without doubt that
> the Indo-European language
> > > group was developed within Neolithic culture and
> introduced to
> > > Palaeolithic Europe, with farming and associated
> technologies.
> > >
> > > And so I uphold that the Neolithic Haplogroup's
> of G & J in the 'Isles'
> > > are also Celtic being members of the
> Indo-European cultural migration
> > > which made they way to the Isles over a period
> of 4000 years and were
> > > part of those peoples who spoke the
> Indo-European Celtic group of
> > > languages, being themselves the Indo-Europeans.
> > >
> > >
> > > All the best.
> > > Grant South
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Steve Williamson" <>
> > > To: <>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 5:47 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [DNA] NYTimes.com Article: Celtic
> Found to Have Ancient
> > > Roots
> > >
> > >
> > > > I wrote:
> > > > "I suggested J2 as an "Indo-European"
> haplogroup in the sense that if
> > > > J2
> > > is the haplogroup associated with the spread of
> Neolithic farmers into
> > > Europe from western Eurasia, and if these
> farmers were speakers of
> > > Indo-European..."
> > > >
> > > > Then I noticed that Family Tree DNA associates
> R1a with the first IE
> > > speakers, who they equate with the Kurgan
> culture (anyone see the movie
> > > "Highlander"?). I guess it depends on which
> theory you subscribe to:
> > > that the bringers of IE languages to Europe were
> nomadic pastoralists,
> > > or that they were Anatolian farmers. Maybe it
> was both?
> > > >
> > > > No one knows (yet), which is why there are a
> range of theories among
> > > historians & archaeologists.
> > > >
> > > > Steve W.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------
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> > > >
>
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> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ______________________________
> > >
> > >
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> > go to:
>
=== message truncated ===


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