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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2003-07 > 1058799540


From:
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b to R1b8
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 10:59:00 EDT


In a message dated 07/21/03 6:50:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
writes:

> Isn't is possible to be just R1b with only one UEP mutation (M173)? Aren't
> the R1b subgroups 2 UEP mutations-the M173 mutation AND another UEP that
> identifies them as that subgroup?

You've got the basic idea, just one level off. R1 is defined by M173. R1a and
R1b are defined by one additional mutation (SRY-10831b and P25 respectively).
The subgroups 1-8 for R1b are each defined by one more mutation, which
occurred after the mutation for R1b.

But if you don't have any of those eight mutations, you would be dumped into
R1b* (where the * is like a wild card, meaning anything left over). If you are
just plain R1b, that would imply that no additional tests have been done for
the 8 known subgroups.

If you were R1bxR1b8, that would imply that you had a test for R1b8 (and
failed it), so you are any kind of R1b eXcept for R1b8.

http://ycc.biosci.arizona.edu/nomenclature_system/fig1.html


> Then within those r1b and its various subgroups are a variety of haplotype
> results. Some common, some not so common. Right?

Yes -- but with the caveat that a given haplotype can be found in more than
one haplogroup. This can happen in two ways:

1) The person who had the UEP that defines the new haplogroup also had
brothers and cousins and other relatives with the same haplotype. 100% of the new
haplogroup will have haplotypes which derive from the founder, so you may be
able to detect a common or modal haplotype. But in the meantime, some smaller
fraction of the old haplogroup will have haplotypes which derive from those close
relatives. They continue to have descendants, too, so you may see the same
haplotype in two different haplogroups.

2) Haplotypes which are initially different can converge toward the same
values. I wrote up an example of convergence in this old post:

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2003-06/1055777322

Ann Turner - GENEALOGY-DNA List Administrator
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