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From: "Palden" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Picts had matrilinear royal descent through mtDNA
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:58:21 +1000
References: <20030901185902.25394.qmail@web41209.mail.yahoo.com>


This is an interesting line David.

I also have given this some thought over the years 'what happened to the Pict's?'. Of course some of the Clans of Scotland historically claim direct Pict descent.

In the male line:-Clan MacNaughten as descending from 'Nechtan Mor', the Pictish Prince of Moray.

As these folk were part of the ancient Briton's R1b, being themselves an early Celtic people [Proto-Celt] I have them as being R1b.

Given that this includes most of Britain then any one with a British grandmother is of the 'Ancient Briton' line. Pict was the name the Roman's gave them to mean 'Painted' hence the 'blue faces' in 'Brave Heart' the movie. The later 'Celt's' who were from continental Europe had the same origins as the natives of Briton, and so their R1b DNA just blended in. This has been confirmed by testing. What is of great surprise is that according to the BBC study for the Viking's, we just didn't know how Celtic the British were.

Approx. 70% Celtic [ancient Briton] in the Y-line and 95% in the mt-line.
Southern English are as Celtic as the Highlands of Scotland and the Irish and Welsh are the same.

Please do not forget the small Neolithic HgG* input [my own tribe] who have been there since approx 4000 BCE, found mostly in Ulster, having brought the idea of standing stones, etc to the 'Isles'.

Although people have moved around a bit once they get to where they settle again and marry a local person their offspring became part of the local community and thus continue as the same people who have always been there.

There is an example given in Scotland being 'If a Macdonald man isolated in the Heart of Campbell country, married Isobel and he watched his son's and grandson's do the same for the next 9 generations.
Only himself and 9 other people in a direct line have held the name Macdonald out of 1022 ancestors [10 generations]. 1012 being Campbell's.

Really we are part of the local Campbell community, but we hold the name Macdonald. My rationale is that the Campbell's themselves are living in Argyll [Land [Ar]of the Scotti Gaels [gyll]] and so we would be Scoto-Pict's of Argyll. [Irish Gaelic Celt and Ancient Briton Celt from Argyll]

If an English male [ 70% chance of them being male line Celt from the South] settles in Argyll the same applies.

In terms of a general name the describes the people of England Anglo-Saxon is now known to be way out as it would only cover about 15 % of the direct male line, the other 15% would be from the Viking's [1/2 Norwegian, 1/2 Danish]. The BBC study also found that the DNA of Anglo-Saxon's and that of Danish Vikings was the same. Given that Celt's dominated middle and lower Germany. I think Scando-Celt [This is my term-forgive me] would be the new correct term for the admixture of British DNA.

An overview would look something like this;

Northern Irish and Northern Scottish [Scando-Gaelic-Pict's]
Southern Irish, Welsh and Southern English [Scando-Brythonic Celt's]
Southern Scottish and Northern English [Scando-Brythonic Celt's]

And yes, the Pict's were matrilineal several Scottish and northern Irish clans claim this descent, as does the Royal House of Scotland, which includes the Royal House of England, representing the Scoto-Pict line through the 'Blood Royal'.


All the very best.
Grant South












----- Original Message -----
From: David Faux
To:
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 4:59 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Picts had matrilinear royal descent through mtDNA


Hello Sarah and LIsters:

I fear that I cannot answer your question below Sarah, but thought I would add in another question in case there is perchance a "Pict scholar" or knowledgeable person out in Listland. My question is simple, "What would be a typical Pictish DNA profile?" - R1b?.

In my Shetland Islands Surname DNA Project one of my goals was to see if there was any evidence of Pict survival. After the Vikings from the western fiords of Norway settled Shetland between about 600 and 800, there appears to be no further record of the native Picts. Were they displaced to certain parts of the Islands, were they exterminated, or were they simply absorbed into the Norse and later Scottish population of the Islands?

If anyone can give me a prediction on what Pict Y - chromosome DNA is likely to be (e.g., on the YCC Consortium table) I would be most appreciative.

These early Britons are a fascinating people, but after the Roman occupation seem to be lost in the mists of time.

Thank you.

David F.

Sarah Jordan <> wrote:
I read the other day that the Picts in Scotland passed the role of King down the female line by the son of the king's sister inheriting the title. ie instead of the Y chromosome determining the royal line the mtDNA did! I find this amazing and wonder if anyone can confirm this?
Unfortunately the Scotti tended to marry the sisters and thus had influence. Eventually they took over.
Sarah


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